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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 1125

post #16861 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Circumstantial evidence? What do you know about circumstantial evidence? I have personally called nearly every maker of shoe products that I use to ascertain ingredients, and looked hard for the ingredient list of every product that has crossed my work bench, and I have paid attention to the comments of others who have complained on here SF about smells and reactions, etc.. Nothing circumstantial about it esp. in the face of my attempts to obtain more info and doubly esp. since I have personally applied many of these products with my own two hands and seen the results both short term and long term.

But all that flies in the face of the fact that I didn't accuse anyone specifically...I simply suggested ...in another post to another fellow which you obviously didn't digest every well...that redacting ingredients, like any redaction of information, is a good sign, or at least one sign, that deception is the intent.

I, personally, don't think that such a statement falls into the category of accusation nearly as well as your remarks implying that I would misstate what my daughter would do with regard to revealing what goes into the dishes she creates.

In other words...to put it bluntly...I think you redact information and make accusations too readily to be calling the kettle black.

As far as "unfair" is concerned...poor babies...what's fair about redacting vital information that consumers can use? What's fair about deliberately misstating or misleading the public? What's fair about lying?

And what's unfair about pointing out such practices?

I think your perspective about fairness...or even about what constitutes authority and/or relevant experience is badly skewed.

Yes, I did understand. I addressed your speculation. You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine. I just disagree with yours and how you arrive at it.
Can you tell us Lexols Conditioner formula. Know one seems to be able to get it. I'm curious though.....

edited for punctuation and clarity
post #16862 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Can you tell us Lexols Conditioner formula. Know one seems to be able to get it. I'm curious though.....

No of course not. No ingredient list.

And FWIW, I've called Lexol several times asking about ingredients. They were not helpful...might be one of the reasons I prefer Bick4. Bickmore at least told me what wasn't in it--silicone.
post #16863 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


The difference there is that I earned the lessons that came from those experiences. And they are real, based on real life...not speculation and clishmaclaver. I have earned the right...and because of that I even consider it a duty...to offer my credentials when people who have none set out to contradict or challenge me.

You tend to blithely dismiss your ignorance and use that as a weapon, stubbornly insisting...like a blinkered mule...that your idea of what is right or which way the cart should go is paramount.

Like so many in our society/culture, you want the credit and the accolades but are unwilling to work for them.

I offer my experience as a counterweight to your intransigence. It is citing sources. It is examining and exploring and analyzing the mechanics of a technique, situation or material. I am certain that for people who are really and truly interested in understanding and learning, that that approach is far better than gritting your teeth, stolidly shaking your head, and repeating what you've just said...without any real or consistent substantiation in any form.

I say put up or shut up

 

I am here to question and learn.

 

So tell me, what's wrong with me questioning pB making unverified and untested claims and asking for verifications?  Are you a stout supporter of shoot first, raise and aim later?

 

From my observation, you tend to favor discrediting other people instead of their talking points/experiences.  Your experiences and insight are great in the cases where they directly apply.  Unfortunately when they don't or in conflict with other's experiences, you still throw them around to back up your pseudo science.  Case-in-point, flushed metal toe taps.

post #16864 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

No of course not. No ingredient list.

And FWIW, I've called Lexol several times asking about ingredients. They were not helpful...might be one of the reasons I prefer Bick4. Bickmore at least told me what wasn't in it--silicone.

Oh....I didn't think you could. Would have been nice if you were able to.Thanks for trying though.
I guess this puts Lexol in the dirty rotten swine group for some.
post #16865 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

I am here to question and learn.

So tell me, what's wrong with me questioning pB making unverified and untested claims and asking for verifications?  Are you a stout supporter of shoot first, raise and aim later?

From my observation, you tend to favor discrediting other people instead of their talking points/experiences.  Your experiences and insight are great in the cases where they directly apply.  Unfortunately when they don't or in conflict with other's experiences, you still throw them around to back up your pseudo science.  Case-in-point, flushed metal toe taps.

How are they unverified when I got them from leather chemists? Because I didn't personally test them? Wouldn't make sense to, I am not a chemist.

Why are you so insistent on supporting saddle soap, when you yourself never tested it? At the same time you're so insistent on saying I am wrong, when I have actually done leg work to gather information. I think you've been using the stuff and telling others to use it and know it isn't the best option, but are afraid to admit it.
post #16866 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

No of course not. No ingredient list.

And FWIW, I've called Lexol several times asking about ingredients. They were not helpful...might be one of the reasons I prefer Bick4. Bickmore at least told me what wasn't in it--silicone.

Didn't Bickmore say there is less than 0.1% of silicone for "emulsion" purposes?
post #16867 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Didn't Bickmore say there is less than 0.1% of silicone for "emulsion" purposes?

Well, not to me...not that I remember. Not on the phone, IOW. And I have had no other contact with them...although it did take three tries to finally get something from them.

If they told you that, then maybe they deceived me.
post #16868 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

I am here to question and learn.

So tell me, what's wrong with me questioning pB making unverified and untested claims and asking for verifications?  Are you a stout supporter of shoot first, raise and aim later?

From my observation, you tend to favor discrediting other people instead of their talking points/experiences.  Your experiences and insight are great in the cases where they directly apply.  Unfortunately when they don't or in conflict with other's experiences, you still throw them around to back up your pseudo science.  Case-in-point, flushed metal toe taps.

I am not going to pursue this...but I felt it necessary to answer you here.

I have watched pB make a concerted effort to find out why his shoes were cracking. Not to bolster his own preconceived opinions but to find out. He not only admitted that his expensive shoes cracked but he worked, he earned, he went to some trouble to find answers that were objective and as definitive as they could be. That's true willingness to learn...not just mouthing the words.

As I said, in a previous post, I don't know anyone who knows why shoes...some made with the world's finest leathers...crack. Nor do I know anyone who has gone to the effort to find out the way pB has.

I respect that. I still don't know for sure if his conclusions are true or partly true or not true at all but I respect it. His efforts, his observations and conclusions...and his willingness to share them...are positive contributions to this forum

I don't respect people who have never made a similar effort coming along and contradicting his remarks with nothing other than pipe dreams and phantasms to support their assertions.

And I damn sure will discredit contentious people who don't have any reason to be contentious beyond sheer orneriness.

You're not contributing anything positive.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 10/8/15 at 12:35pm
post #16869 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Oh....I didn't think you could. Would have been nice if you were able to.Thanks for trying though.
I guess this puts Lexol in the dirty rotten swine group for some.

I don't know that I would go that far. But...as I have been insisting all along...it's reason to hold a little back and not be a gullible shill for them.

Skepticism is one of the hallmarks of an open mind.
post #16870 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

An update--the "straight skinny," hopefully.

I called Bickmore (again) this morning and "braced" the representative there about the AMA interview and silicone. I was told point blank that the list of ingredients and the formulas for Bickmore products were protected, trade secrets.

But I described the interview on AMA...along with the observation that the rep didn't seem as savvy as he could have/should have been. I also relayed the assertion by the rep that there were no silicones in Bick4.

At which point, the person I was talking to said that there were indeed silicones in Bick4 but "less than 1%...for emulsion only."

So, FWIW, that's from the horse's mouth.

It was you! smile.gif
post #16871 of 19072
What I've learned in the last couple of days here: chogall is a troll. Will enable the "ignore" function here next time I'm in my PC.
post #16872 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

It was you! smile.gif

I remember that now! Wasn't it you that posted the link to the AMA interview?

Take my advice, don't get old.

Now where did I leave my wife?

tinfoil.gif
post #16873 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Oh....I didn't think you could. Would have been nice if you were able to.Thanks for trying though.
I guess this puts Lexol in the dirty rotten swine group for some.

I don't think they are dirty rotten swine. They gladly told me the pH of their product, which was awesome. As an emulsified product with an acidic pH it is still a more informed option than products that you don't have any real information about.

I tend to like emulsified conditioners because they aren't as easily over used. The water content evaporates whereas using oils and such as conditioners it is easy to overdo it. The upside is they have no pH. So which is better? YMMV.
post #16874 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I remember that now! Wasn't it you that posted the link to the AMA interview?

Take my advice, don't get old.

Now where did I leave my wife?

tinfoil.gif

I don't think I posted the AMA, but in that AMA they said they don't use coconut oil, which has recently become a popular product ingredient in shoe care products. They claimed it "dried" out the leather.

Scientific claims have had logical reasoning for using it though, namely the oxidative stability of the oil.
post #16875 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post


I don't think I posted the AMA, but in that AMA they said they don't use coconut oil, which has recently become a popular product ingredient in shoe care products. They claimed it "dried" out the leather.

Scientific claims have had logical reasoning for using it though, namely the oxidative stability of the oil.

Bickmore's claim was made by someone in the PR department, who had no experience working with the product itself, and who did not provide any details on how the experiment was carried out. 

 

On an unrelated note, can we stop this bickering? As entertaining as it is, it's just making you all look bad.

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