or Connect
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › **The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.**
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 1120

post #16786 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by M635Guy View Post

Secondly, do you really think companies like AE have PR departments that are driving their product care recommendations? 

Not specifically to AE (and my comments weren't specific to AE, either) it has been demonstrated over and over again that these big companies make misleading claims end even outright lie.
Quote:
Lastly, pB's posts seemed to indict all saddle soap.  It just seems like that is a pretty broad brush, and if he has specific knowledge that that is the case it would be nice if he'd post more information or link to it.
 

He's indicting soap, and rightfully so. "Saddle" is just an adjective.
Quote:
I'm in this forum to learn.

If so, then some research at least within this thread (note "search" is part of research) is warranted before you pass judgement.
post #16787 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post



This is utter bullshit. Your head is so far up your own ass it is pathetic. It is like having to verify and scientifically prove a medication works that your Dr. prescribes to you because they are making unverified claims. Does your Dr. chemically test those medications? Fuck no.



I can't believe your bullshit gets allowed on here, frankly.

 



Okay. So your response to someone questioning your unverified claim of "saddle soap is highly alkaline" is to call his questioning bullshit.
post #16788 of 19068
I think I can propose a solution to this problem.

I have a strip of veg tanned leather, cut from the strap of a briefcase that was shortened. I'm happy to cut it into two smaller pieces, and expose them to two separate solutions, one of acidic pH of 5, and another with a basic pH of 9. Both are 2 pH units away from neutral.

I can place a measured drop (with a pipet) of acid and base on the two different pieces of leather, and we can see what happens over a repeated number of drops. If there's a specific acid or base you'd prefer, let me know. I personally would use NaOH (sodium hydroxide) and HCl (hydrochloric acid).

Finally, if someone sends me $5 via PayPal or something,I'm happy to buy saddle soap and test its pH. I can test it with pH strips and a pH meter, so I can confirm the pH strip's accuracy. I will still carry out my previously detailed experiment should you folks desire, regardless of whether someone can donate $5 to the saddle soap cause.

I have access to a materials science / chemistry lab, so contamination and resources wouldn't be a problem.
post #16789 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbhan12 View Post

I think I can propose a solution to this problem.

I have a strip of veg tanned leather, cut from the strap of a briefcase that was shortened. I'm happy to cut it into two smaller pieces, and expose them to two separate solutions, one of acidic pH of 5, and another with a basic pH of 9. Both are 2 pH units away from neutral.

I can place a measured drop (with a pipet) of acid and base on the two different pieces of leather, and we can see what happens over a repeated number of drops. If there's a specific acid or base you'd prefer, let me know. I personally would use NaOH (sodium hydroxide) and HCl (hydrochloric acid).

Finally, if someone sends me $5 via PayPal or something,I'm happy to buy saddle soap and test its pH. I can test it with pH strips and a pH meter, so I can confirm the pH strip's accuracy. I will still carry out my previously detailed experiment should you folks desire, regardless of whether someone can donate $5 to the saddle soap cause.

I have access to a materials science / chemistry lab, so contamination and resources wouldn't be a problem.

PM me your address. Happy to send you a tin.....
post #16790 of 19068
The problem is, you can test the effect of acid/base on leather, but can you test the pH of leather? I mean, pH is only for measuring aqueous solutions...

p.s., I need to buy a pH meter for soil test, will get around to do it someday, maybe this week, and then I could test pH of my Saphir saddle soap. Said I would do it, but its just not high on my priority list. I dont sell shoe care products or blog for vendors.
post #16791 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post



This is utter bullshit. Your head is so far up your own ass it is pathetic. It is like having to verify and scientifically prove a medication works that your Dr. prescribes to you because they are making unverified claims. Does your Dr. chemically test those medications? Fuck no.



I can't believe your bullshit gets allowed on here, frankly.

 



Okay. So your response to someone questioning your unverified claim of "saddle soap is highly alkaline" is to call his questioning bullshit.

Dove isn't saddle soap. Traditional saddle soap isn't anything more than naturally made soap. Why are you intentionally being so fucking obtuse? Who said they are putting Dove soap on their shoes?

I was wrong, you're not willfully ignorant, you're just a douchebag.
post #16792 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

The problem is, you can test the effect of acid/base on leather, but can you test the pH of leather? I mean, pH is only for measuring aqueous solutions...

p.s., I need to buy a pH meter for soil test, will get around to do it someday, maybe this week, and then I could test pH of my Saphir saddle soap. Said I would do it, but its just not high on my priority list. I dont sell shoe care products or blog for vendors.

Leather is amphoteric it takes on the characteristics of what it is exposed to.
post #16793 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbhan12 View Post

I think I can propose a solution to this problem.

I have a strip of veg tanned leather, cut from the strap of a briefcase that was shortened. I'm happy to cut it into two smaller pieces, and expose them to two separate solutions, one of acidic pH of 5, and another with a basic pH of 9. Both are 2 pH units away from neutral.

I can place a measured drop (with a pipet) of acid and base on the two different pieces of leather, and we can see what happens over a repeated number of drops. If there's a specific acid or base you'd prefer, let me know. I personally would use NaOH (sodium hydroxide) and HCl (hydrochloric acid).

Finally, if someone sends me $5 via PayPal or something,I'm happy to buy saddle soap and test its pH. I can test it with pH strips and a pH meter, so I can confirm the pH strip's accuracy. I will still carry out my previously detailed experiment should you folks desire, regardless of whether someone can donate $5 to the saddle soap cause.

I have access to a materials science / chemistry lab, so contamination and resources wouldn't be a problem.

Good on you...but perhaps the better solution would be to forego the acid (or use vinegar or better, tannic acid). Veg tanned leather is already acidic--it is tanned with acid. I don't think anyone has said that some acids (hydrochloric?) won't be just as deleterious to leather as a base. I have seen museum studies that suggest that over-acidity can cause problems.

Beyond that, I think a hands-on study would be useful...but not universally so. As I pointed out, for some no amount of study or evidence or photos will change their minds. And for others, it would only be a matter of time before that study got lost in the archive of past posts and then we'd have the same old stramash all over again, with the previously unwilling to learn or unwilling to search chiming it with reiterations of self-absorbed speculation.

After many years in the Trade...doing (personally), observing, and talking to other shoemakers...I don't think anyone has a handle on what causes leather to crack beyond micro-fines in the creases. But almost from the get-go I was taught that a ph-balance cleaner such a Lexol-ph or even No More Tears baby shampoo was vastly preferred over soap.

--
post #16794 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post



He agreed with me, I don't know what you're talking about. Do you know that "basic" and "alkaline" are the same thing?



Do a search for saddle soap online and you get tons of articles telling you not to use it. How is this unverified?

 



He agreed with you by saying "His is right, Soap is Alkaline."

And now you said Dove has a pH of 7, which is neutral, proving him wrong.

Google search for any of the conspiracy theories and you will get tons of information telling you those theories are true. Awesome verification method.

You're changing the conversation to that of language not science. Dove isn't saddle soap, saddle soap, or "glycerin soap" is naturally made where glycerin is a byproduct of the soap making process. Dove, isn't a natural soap like traditionally made saddle soaps.
post #16795 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbhan12 View Post

I think I can propose a solution to this problem.

I have a strip of veg tanned leather, cut from the strap of a briefcase that was shortened. I'm happy to cut it into two smaller pieces, and expose them to two separate solutions, one of acidic pH of 5, and another with a basic pH of 9. Both are 2 pH units away from neutral.

I can place a measured drop (with a pipet) of acid and base on the two different pieces of leather, and we can see what happens over a repeated number of drops. If there's a specific acid or base you'd prefer, let me know. I personally would use NaOH (sodium hydroxide) and HCl (hydrochloric acid).

Finally, if someone sends me $5 via PayPal or something,I'm happy to buy saddle soap and test its pH. I can test it with pH strips and a pH meter, so I can confirm the pH strip's accuracy. I will still carry out my previously detailed experiment should you folks desire, regardless of whether someone can donate $5 to the saddle soap cause.

I have access to a materials science / chemistry lab, so contamination and resources wouldn't be a problem.

I'll donate a lot more than $5 to settle this and a lot more to somebody to shit in a box and send it to Chogall for being an obese asshole.

Acetic acid diluted might be your best bet. Finished leather has a pH between 3 and 5 so HCL might be too strong. I will defer that to you.
post #16796 of 19068
..
post #16797 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post



I'll donate a lot more than $5 to settle this and a lot more to somebody to shit in a box and send it to Chogall for being an obese asshole.



Acetic acid diluted might be your best bet. Finished leather has a pH between 3 and 5 so HCL might be too strong. I will defer that to you.

 



Okay, now you move on from making unverified claims on certain type of products to now straight personal attacks and real life threats...

Now I am concerned that you go full American Psycho on me based on your Dubiously Honored status and relationships with vendors...
post #16798 of 19068
Guys - I'm sorry I've continued a conversation that seems to have stirred up some issues. Can I suggest everyone try keeping tempers in check and hyperbole to a minimum?
post #16799 of 19068
Thanks Nick V, I'll send you a PM shortly.

I don't want to use acetic acid because 1) it's a weak acid and 2) it's a buffer. Without going into too much chemical detail, I'm confident that HCl will suffice.
post #16800 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Good on you...but perhaps the better solution would be to forego the acid (or use vinegar or better, tannic acid). Veg tanned leather is already acidic--it is tanned with acid. I don't think anyone has said that some acids (hydrochloric?) won't be just as deleterious to leather as a base. I have seen museum studies that suggest that over-acidity can cause problems.

Beyond that, I think a hands-on study would be useful...but not universally so. As I pointed out, for some no amount of study or evidence or photos will change their minds. And for others, it would only be a matter of time before that study got lost in the archive of past posts and then we'd have the same old stramash all over again, with the previously unwilling to learn or unwilling to search chiming it with reiterations of self-absorbed speculation.

After many years in the Trade...doing (personally), observing, and talking to other shoemakers...I don't think anyone has a handle on what causes leather to crack beyond micro-fines in the creases. But almost from the get-go I was taught that a ph-balance cleaner such a Lexol-ph or even No More Tears baby shampoo was vastly preferred over soap.

--

I really appreciate your perspective and informative post.

I'm going to ask a really stupid question now: Is saddle soap actually soap? I only glanced in the tin I got weeks ago (and haven't used) and it seems like it looked waxy/oily. It made me think the word "soap" wasn't being used literally...

Are there products meant to look/apply like saddle soap but are pH-corrected?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Classic Menswear
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › **The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.**