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post #16771 of 19073
I don't know what would satisfy some people on this forum with regard to proof...I suspect no amount of objective proof or hands-on experience will ever suffice. Because willful ignorance is just another way of saying that "my subjective, isolated, singular experiences...no matter how poorly informed or misinterpreted...trump all others."

I can't think of anyone on this forum who has researched this more, or more diligently, more than pB.. But all of that is beside the point for some people.

What constitutes reasonable expertise? Or reliable information?

What constitutes wallowing in your own stew of fanciful druthers?

"Intellectual curiousity"? Bah! There are far too many people who sling that phrase around that are really just looking to have their previous suppositions given credence, regardless of any factual basis.

Real intellectual curiosity requires an output of energy such as pB has demonstrated time and again. Real intellectual curiosity would suggest a certain open-mindedness (short of being so open minded that brains spill out, of course) and a willingness to pursue the basis of other peoples opinions. Or at minimum, to listen...occasionally. Real intellectual curiousity is always...always...accompanied by a willingness to be honest with ourselves (at least) and to see our own shortcomings--such as lack of real in-depth experience. No one can be an expert about every subject they encounter.

And trying harder doesn't help.

As far as jaded perspectives and conspiracy theorists...the undeniable fact is that most manufacturers are looking out for their own interests. Most of them have powerful "public relations" departments that gobble up an inordinately large proportion of the budget and whose sole mandate is to convince the public to accept their benevolence and their assertions of "the best" and "the most Traditional"...and similar hyperbole. Despite the fact that if only by virtue of the info that they redact--ingredient lists and so forth...it is intended...deliberately...to mislead.

Being cautions and withholding blind...and naive...credulity is simply a survival strategy.

Those who buy into it have long since abandoned all pretense to "critical thinking."
post #16772 of 19073
Quote:
Originally Posted by M635Guy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Right, because I have never talked about my own practical experiences. I'm not saying you're ignorant, I am saying you're being willfully ignorant. As another poster said, soap is alkaline. Alkalinity makes leather brittle.

 



You sound a lot more like a conspiracy theorist than a credible source of information at this point. If you've got practical experience you should relay that.

But you're saying all saddle soap is bad, right? That Saphir and AE make and recommend products that are ultimately damaging in the intended use - is that what you're saying?

Um, my experience is all over in this thread. Go back and do some reading. Saddle soap would be damaging. I never said Saphir's products are damaging, but I have said that they may not be doing much to benefit either. Other than making your shoes "look" better how are they helping? They won't really say other than greasing pieces of paper with their products and saying "look at the oil stain! It is penetrating the leather in the same way!" Bullshit. I started a shit show on here about Saphir years ago with actual experiences.
post #16773 of 19073
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Right, because I have never talked about my own practical experiences. I'm not saying you're ignorant, I am saying you're being willfully ignorant. As another poster said, soap is alkaline. Alkalinity makes leather brittle.



Also, I just don't see the need to soap up shoes anyway. What is the purpose of this? Are people trudging through thick mud?

 



Sure, soap is alkaline. But that's soap. Saddle soap isn't your Dove or Dr Bronner. Its like compare freshly squeezed lemon juice vs. sprite or snapples. Not exactly the same thing, but I am sure its difficult for some to distinguish the two.

And yes, it may be a great surprise to many, but there are people actually wearing their shoes and boots. I wore my boots through mud/soil more than a few times...

Dove has a pH of 7 Bronner has a pH of 9 neither are optimal. Why not use something that is more optimal? It doesn't make sense to me if other, better options are available.
post #16774 of 19073
Quote:
Originally Posted by M635Guy View Post

It seems equivalent to saying all shaving soaps are the same - the variety and quality variance is huge.  Mine has a lot of lanolin in it, allows me to shave close and makes my face feel very good.  I've tried some that have terrible lubricity and dry my face out after one use.

This is true, but one thing is all the same about them: They are all alkaline (which isn't good for skin by the way).

I think people in here tend to think just because something is old and has been used for years that it is better. Science tells us that isn't true. Chogall can agree with me on that one based on all of the pushback he's given DW on the machine vs. hand welting debates.
post #16775 of 19073
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I don't know what would satisfy some people on this forum with regard to proof...I suspect no amount of objective proof or hands-on experience will ever suffice. Because willful ignorance is just another way of saying that "my subjective, isolated, singular experiences...no matter how poorly informed or misinterpreted...trump all others."



I can't think of anyone on this forum who has researched this more, or more diligently, more than pB.. But all of that is beside the point for some people.



What constitutes reasonable expertise? Or reliable information?



What constitutes wallowing in your own stew of fanciful druthers?



"Intellectual curiousity"? Bah! There are far too many people who sling that phrase around that are really just looking to have their previous suppositions given credence, regardless of any factual basis.



Real intellectual curiosity requires an output of energy such as pB has demonstrated time and again. Real intellectual curiosity would suggest a certain open-mindedness (short of being so open minded that brains spill out, of course) and a willingness to pursue the basis of other peoples opinions. Or at minimum, to listen...occasionally. Real intellectual curiousity is always...always...accompanied by a willingness to be honest with ourselves (at least) and to see our own shortcomings--such as lack of real in-depth experience. No one can be an expert about every subject they encounter.



And trying harder doesn't help.



As far as jaded perspectives and conspiracy theorists...the undeniable fact is that most manufacturers are looking out for their own interests. Most of them have powerful "public relations" departments that gobble up an inordinately large proportion of the budget and whose sole mandate is to convince the public to accept their claims of "the best" and "the most Traditional" and similar hyperbple. And if only by virtue of the info that they redact--ingredient lists and so forth...it's all lies if only because it is intended...deliberately...to mislead.



Those who buy into it have long since abandoned all pretense to "critical thinking."

 



It's okay, there's no need to write a block of text to demonstrate your usual difficulties against scientific method.

pB's "research" will worth a lot more weight if he did any verification. Unfortunately, he has no verification on his claim. Just some theoretical orgasm that successfully equate saddle soap to regular house soap.

How about before making those claims, get a saddle soap, dissolve some in water, take its pH, and verify the claim?
post #16776 of 19073
You said you would do it for us, so do it. If I am wrong I am wrong.
post #16777 of 19073
I have read books and various articles and scientific studies done on leather. There is definitely common ground between all of these things. The number one thing to avoid with leather is alkalinity. Do your test on saddle soap, if it shows to be mildly acidic then I cannot and would not say not to use it.
post #16778 of 19073
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post



Dove has a pH of 7 Bronner has a pH of 9 neither are optimal. Why not use something that is more optimal? It doesn't make sense to me if other, better options are available.

 



Oh? And I thought someone else mentioned that soap is basic according to his education in the Top 10 Chem program in the US. Guess he was dead fucking wrong.

p.s., its not about if there are better options available. It is about why make an unverified and scaremongering claim against a product that is perfectly fine to use, at least for outdoor saddle or veg tanned leathers, and is actually recommended by some shoemakers.
post #16779 of 19073
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I don't know what would satisfy some people on this forum with regard to proof...I suspect no amount of objective proof or hands-on experience will ever suffice. Because willful ignorance is just another way of saying that "my subjective, isolated, singular experiences...no matter how poorly informed or misinterpreted...trump all others."

I can't think of anyone on this forum who has researched this more, or more diligently, more than pB.. But all of that is beside the point for some people.

What constitutes reasonable expertise? Or reliable information?

What constitutes wallowing in your own stew of fanciful druthers?

"Intellectual curiousity"? Bah! There are far too many people who sling that phrase around that are really just looking to have their previous suppositions given credence, regardless of any factual basis.

Real intellectual curiosity requires an output of energy such as pB has demonstrated time and again. Real intellectual curiosity would suggest a certain open-mindedness (short of being so open minded that brains spill out, of course) and a willingness to pursue the basis of other peoples opinions. Or at minimum, to listen...occasionally. Real intellectual curiousity is always...always...accompanied by a willingness to be honest with ourselves (at least) and to see our own shortcomings--such as lack of real in-depth experience. No one can be an expert about every subject they encounter.

And trying harder doesn't help.

As far as jaded perspectives and conspiracy theorists...the undeniable fact is that most manufacturers are looking out for their own interests. Most of them have powerful "public relations" departments that gobble up an inordinately large proportion of the budget and whose sole mandate is to convince the public to accept their benevolence and their assertions of "the best" and "the most Traditional"...and similar hyperbole. Despite the fact that if only by virtue of the info that they redact--ingredient lists and so forth...it is intended...deliberately...to mislead.

Being cautions and withholding blind...and naive...credulity is simply a survival strategy.

Those who buy into it have long since abandoned all pretense to "critical thinking."

 

Firstly, I'm a fairly new member, and have zero idea of pB's credentials.  If he's knowledgeable, then it would help if he'd communicate with more fidelity than he is.  Searching this forum is only marginally useful - a blog or a curated repository of some sort would be a LOT more helpful.  

 

Secondly, do you really think companies like AE have PR departments that are driving their product care recommendations?  I don't.  The fact that they have a detailed matrix that is by shoe and finish would lead me to believe they are trying to give customers their best recommendations.  They have a fairly full line of care products, so recommending saddle soap for the Waxed Tan McTavish is silly if it is genuinely not the right product and they have their Conditioner Cleaner, Leather Lotion, etc. to offer.  Are there non-AE alternatives as good or better?  Surely.  But I highly doubt their recommended product is casual. 

 

Lastly, pB's posts seemed to indict all saddle soap.  It just seems like that is a pretty broad brush, and if he has specific knowledge that that is the case it would be nice if he'd post more information or link to it.  

 

I'm not trying to say he doesn't know what he's talking about at all, but I can't tell if he does based on what he's posted, and have little context to search and find what he's generally referencing.  I'm definitely not saying I know better - I'm in this forum to learn.

post #16780 of 19073
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post



Dove has a pH of 7 Bronner has a pH of 9 neither are optimal. Why not use something that is more optimal? It doesn't make sense to me if other, better options are available.

 



Oh? And I thought someone else mentioned that soap is basic according to his education in the Top 10 Chem program in the US. Guess he was dead fucking wrong.

p.s., its not about if there are better options available. It is about why make an unverified and scaremongering claim against a product that is perfectly fine to use, at least for outdoor saddle or veg tanned leathers, and is actually recommended by some shoemakers.

He agreed with me, I don't know what you're talking about. Do you know that "basic" and "alkaline" are the same thing?

Do a search for saddle soap online and you get tons of articles telling you not to use it. How is this unverified?
post #16781 of 19073
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


It's okay, there's no need to write a block of text to demonstrate your usual difficulties against scientific method.

Lay out for us your acumen/experience with "scientific method". Esp. as it applies to this issue. Or second best, detail your extensive experience with shoe care, saddle soaps..or even shoemaking...in such a way as to convince, not just contradict.
Quote:
pB's "research" will worth a lot more weight if he did any verification. Unfortunately, he has no verification on his claim. Just some theoretical orgasm that successfully equate saddle soap to regular house soap.

Frankly, most of what you post seems to fall more into "theoretical orgasm" box than most here.
Quote:
How about before making those claims, get a saddle soap, dissolve some in water, take its pH, and verify the claim?

How about you doing that? You're the one refuting his research, you're the one arguing...I suspect just for the sake of arguing...you're the one who, when pressed, can't really demonstrate any hands-on experience or in-depth knowledge.
post #16782 of 19073
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

You said you would do it for us, so do it. If I am wrong I am wrong.

 



Even if your claim is correct, your method is still flawed and wrong because you made an unverified claim.
post #16783 of 19073
Why do you think companies make "pH adjusted" soaps? Specifically for this reason. Traditional saddle soaps are alkaline, which isn't good for leather. Why are you so insistent on using saddle soap when other cleaners exist that are scientifically designed to not be damaging? I think you just like to be a dickhead for the sake of it.
post #16784 of 19073
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

You said you would do it for us, so do it. If I am wrong I am wrong.

 



Even if your claim is correct, your method is still flawed and wrong because you made an unverified claim.

This is utter bullshit. Your head is so far up your own ass it is pathetic. It is like having to verify and scientifically prove a medication works that your Dr. prescribes to you because they are making unverified claims. Does your Dr. chemically test those medications? Fuck no.

I can't believe your bullshit gets allowed on here, frankly.
post #16785 of 19073
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post



He agreed with me, I don't know what you're talking about. Do you know that "basic" and "alkaline" are the same thing?



Do a search for saddle soap online and you get tons of articles telling you not to use it. How is this unverified?

 



He agreed with you by saying "His is right, Soap is Alkaline."

And now you said Dove has a pH of 7, which is neutral, proving him wrong.

Google search for any of the conspiracy theories and you will get tons of information telling you those theories are true. Awesome verification method.
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