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post #16336 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by wengxiah View Post

shog[1].gif may i ask another question

I have a pair of RTW shoes that pinches my little toe, does it not necessarily mean i need a wider fore foot width? I read one of the DFW post before, it is heel-ball length that matters, even if i lost my toes, i would probably still wear the same size. So 'pinching my little toes' might just mean, this rtw last is not for me, correct? Since, i dont feel uncomfortable at the place of my ball or the metatarsophalangeal joint of my little toe(i didn't know how to say it so i have just googled it)
Am i correct?

That's a plausible conclusion. At a certain point, however, if you're having this much problem you may need to look at bespoke or MTM.

Again, RTW seeks to fit the most people with the least amount of effort or variation.

Again, consider that in the American system of last grading we have a minimum of five possible widths in each length size. And possibly even nine or more possible widths.

Most RTW brands...even the highest of the high end...offer only three possible widths, maximum. And zero accommodation for the foot with a wide forepart and a narrow heel.

Yet feet themselves vary enough that a pair of feet (on the same body) may (almost certainty will) differ in length and / or esp. width.

How is limiting the number of options available to the customer anything but expediency and / or cynicism?

Most people who buy RTW sacrifice fit to one degree or another...regardless of how insignificant...for the sake of appearance. And dismiss logic and rationality as an impediment to fulfilling their dreams.

--
Edited by DWFII - 7/27/15 at 5:37pm
post #16337 of 19038


Most people who buy RTW sacrifice fit to one degree or another...regardless of how insignificant...for the sake of appearance. And dismiss logic and rationality as an impediment to fulfilling their dreams.

--

That is a good one.  I might be included in that cathegory for some of my first purchases to be frank.:smarmy: .  30% of my RTW shoes dont fit me  well. If I do not sell them is because to have the same model is going to cost me double at current prices (and they are outrageus)

 

On the other hand,  to get to know your feet, to get to know fit/lasts and to get to know the relationship of both while waking...it takes time and experience. I think I have reached now that expertise.

post #16338 of 19038

I think it's a little harsh to criticise RTW for the variety of fits on offer. Firstly it's inaccurate to simply say most RTW only cater for 2-3 width fittings (in the handcrafted shoe sector), or a small number of possible fittings. Loake for example although mainly supply F and G fits (standard and wide) do have a small number of E and H fits too, besides that they use over 40 different last shapes. So in reality you have over 40 differing fits right there.

 

Given that every person is likely to have some slight nuance with their individual feet how many different fits is a RTW manufacturer expected to give? If you're selling to the world then you have to try and gauge your fit for an average. Its just not going to be viable creating a 2000 pair line run in some outlandish shape that a fistful of people have and even then hope that they will like the style enough buy it. Expecting RTW to make hundreds of fittings to cater for every conceivable foot is illogical and not possible from both a practical and business perspective. I suppose RTW are doing bespoke a favour, I mean if they did cater for everyone then there would be less need for bespoke... 

 

Casting aspersions on peoples character for settling on a shoe that they like that may not fit exactly right is ludicrous. If a person is happy with what they have then surely thats the main thing and I'm sure I can say on behalf of the unspoken majority that we arent missing out on anything by buying RTW. 

 

If bespoke is not an option for a person then surely constructive advice on making the best of whats available would be better than attempting to cause a person chagrin.

 

Fulfilling their dreams? Its a pair of shoes...

post #16339 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemo79 View Post
 

I think it's a little harsh to criticise RTW for the variety of fits on offer. Firstly it's inaccurate to simply say most RTW only cater for 2-3 width fittings (in the handcrafted shoe sector), or a small number of possible fittings. Loake for example although mainly supply F and G fits (standard and wide) do have a small number of E and H fits too, besides that they use over 40 different last shapes. So in reality you have over 40 differing fits right there.

 

Given that every person is likely to have some slight nuance with their individual feet how many different fits is a RTW manufacturer expected to give? If you're selling to the world then you have to try and gauge your fit for an average. Its just not going to be viable creating a 2000 pair line run in some outlandish shape that a fistful of people have and even then hope that they will like the style enough buy it. Expecting RTW to make hundreds of fittings to cater for every conceivable foot is illogical and not possible from both a practical and business perspective. I suppose RTW are doing bespoke a favour, I mean if they did cater for everyone then there would be less need for bespoke... 

 

Casting aspersions on peoples character for settling on a shoe that they like that may not fit exactly right is ludicrous. If a person is happy with what they have then surely thats the main thing and I'm sure I can say on behalf of the unspoken majority that we arent missing out on anything by buying RTW. 

 

If bespoke is not an option for a person then surely constructive advice on making the best of whats available would be better than attempting to cause a person chagrin.

 

Fulfilling their dreams? Its a pair of shoes...

I think you are misunderstanding the point: Its unlikely that a RTW shoe will ever fit as well as a good bespoke shoe. Not because its terrible, but because it wasnt intended for a specific person. As that is inarguable, to buy a RTW shoe, one has to make certain compromises. At that point, the conversation becomes about degree of compromise, and not whether we are making a compromise. In other words, "this RTW shoe fits 75% as well as bespoke, but costs $500 less, is sold at a local store and I can have it today. For those reasons I am willing to compromise on fit". This is an entirely reasonable decision, but it illustrates the difference in the conversations we are having. 

 

I dont think anyone is casting aspersions. The reality is that people buy RTW over bespoke for a multitude of reasons: price, availability, time to produce, etc. The question to ask is if a good bespoke maker was able to create a shoe for you in the exact style you want, in the time frame you needed, and at the same price as a RTW equivalent, but fits you better, would you still buy RTW? 

 

If the answer to the above question is yes, I would be shocked and would be incredibly interested in hearing your rationale.

post #16340 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavro23 View Post
 

I think you are misunderstanding the point: Its unlikely that a RTW shoe will ever fit as well as a good bespoke shoe. Not because its terrible, but because it wasnt intended for a specific person. As that is inarguable, to buy a RTW shoe, one has to make certain compromises. At that point, the conversation becomes about degree of compromise, and not whether we are making a compromise. In other words, "this RTW shoe fits 75% as well as bespoke, but costs $500 less, is sold at a local store and I can have it today. For those reasons I am willing to compromise on fit". This is an entirely reasonable decision, but it illustrates the difference in the conversations we are having. 

 

I dont think anyone is casting aspersions. The reality is that people buy RTW over bespoke for a multitude of reasons: price, availability, time to produce, etc. The question to ask is if a good bespoke maker was able to create a shoe for you in the exact style you want, in the time frame you needed, and at the same price as a RTW equivalent, but fits you better, would you still buy RTW? 

 

If the answer to the above question is yes, I would be shocked and would be incredibly interested in hearing your rationale.

 

Im not sure where you're going with that...

 

My point is bespoke isn't the same cost, time-frame, style etc etc so what is the point of poo pooing RTW and people who want some advice for them?

 

You say that no-one is casting aspersions when it was clearly stated above that choosing RTW and sacrificing fit no matter how significant was both illogical and irrational...? This after you yourself have pointed out several excellent reasons why bespoke is not a viable option for people? Its the same as saying.... "you bought RTW, what an idiot".

 

I havent missed any points but I think perhaps you missed mine.

 

If I had the money, if I could get what I want, sure I'd go bespoke. I cant so I wont, the point is moot and Im no worse off for buying RTW nor am I being "irrational or illogical" for doing so.

post #16341 of 19038

Bdavro writes:

 

The question to ask is if a good bespoke maker was able to create a shoe for you in the exact style you want, in the time frame you needed, and at the same price as a RTW equivalent, but fits you better, would you still buy RTW? 

 

 

This is a bit of a non question and a straw man. It would be odd to answer 'yes' to his question. On the other hand, it is unlikely that a bespoke maker could make shoes for the price of RTW.

post #16342 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemo79 View Post
 

 

Im not sure where you're going with that...

 

My point is bespoke isn't the same cost, time-frame, style etc etc so what is the point of poo pooing RTW and people who want some advice for them?

 

You say that no-one is casting aspersions when it was clearly stated above that choosing RTW and sacrificing fit no matter how significant was both illogical and irrational...? This after you yourself have pointed out several excellent reasons why bespoke is not a viable option for people? Its the same as saying.... "you bought RTW, what an idiot".

 

I havent missed any points but I think perhaps you missed mine.

 

If I had the money, if I could get what I want, sure I'd go bespoke. I cant so I wont, the point is moot and Im no worse off for buying RTW nor am I being "irrational or illogical" for doing so.

The argument that RTW is as good as bespoke is irrational and illogical. I am certainly not saying there is no reason to buy RTW, I have a closet full of RTW shoes. And its not the same things as saying "you bought RTW, what an idiot", not even close. As you state above, if you had the money, you'd go bespoke. You are worse off for buying RTW, but its a compromise you are comfortable in making, and certainly a reasonable one.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post
 

Bdavro writes:

 

The question to ask is if a good bespoke maker was able to create a shoe for you in the exact style you want, in the time frame you needed, and at the same price as a RTW equivalent, but fits you better, would you still buy RTW? 

 

 

This is a bit of a non question and a straw man. It would be odd to answer 'yes' to his question. On the other hand, it is unlikely that a bespoke maker could make shoes for the price of RTW.

It isnt a straw man, its a simple illustration of the point I am making: A good bespoke shoe will offer better fit than a RTW shoe. All things are not equal however, so people make compromises on fit, generally for the sake of cost. I dont think this is a revelation worthy of WikiLeaks. 

 

If we can agree that good bespoke offers better fit than RTW, then everything else that goes into that decision centers on things that are unrelated to fit. I am happy, no, overjoyed to concede that there are very compelling reasons to choose RTW over bespoke. However, in the overwhelming majority of the cases, fit will not be one of those reasons.

post #16343 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemo79 View Post

I think it's a little harsh to criticise RTW for the variety of fits on offer. Firstly it's inaccurate to simply say most RTW only cater for 2-3 width fittings (in the handcrafted shoe sector), or a small number of possible fittings. Loake for example although mainly supply F and G fits (standard and wide) do have a small number of E and H fits too, besides that they use over 40 different last shapes. So in reality you have over 40 differing fits right there.

Given that every person is likely to have some slight nuance with their individual feet how many different fits is a RTW manufacturer expected to give? If you're selling to the world then you have to try and gauge your fit for an average. Its just not going to be viable creating a 2000 pair line run in some outlandish shape that a fistful of people have and even then hope that they will like the style enough buy it. Expecting RTW to make hundreds of fittings to cater for every conceivable foot is illogical and not possible from both a practical and business perspective. I suppose RTW are doing bespoke a favour, I mean if they did cater for everyone then there would be less need for bespoke... 

Casting aspersions on peoples character for settling on a shoe that they like that may not fit exactly right is ludicrous. If a person is happy with what they have then surely thats the main thing and I'm sure I can say on behalf of the unspoken majority that we arent missing out on anything by buying RTW. 

If bespoke is not an option for a person then surely constructive advice on making the best of whats available would be better than attempting to cause a person chagrin.

Fulfilling their dreams? Its a pair of shoes...

Agreed......Added sometimes the message gets lost in not what is being said but the way it's being said.
post #16344 of 19038

Your question Bdavro is still vacuous. It's a bit like asking, 'if an airline could offer you first class seats for the price of economy class, would you still fly economy?'

 

There is only one reason for my not wearing bespoke shoes and that is that I can't afford them. 

post #16345 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post
 

Your question Bdavro is still vacuous. It's a bit like asking, 'if an airline could offer you first class seats for the price of economy class, would you still fly economy?'

 

There is only one reason for my not wearing bespoke shoes is that I can't afford them. 

Your understanding of my question appears to be vacuous as evidenced by your example. It boils down to appropriateness of function. A bespoke shoe is intended to fit one person's feet specifically. A RTW shoe is intended to reasonably fit a large number of feet. Your airline analogy would be better replaced by the following: Using a slot headed screw driver on a Philips headed screw may get the job done, but it isnt ideal and isnt the intended use of the implement.

post #16346 of 19038

Sorry, but you've lost me...

post #16347 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post
 

Sorry, but you've lost me...

Ok, lets move on then.

post #16348 of 19038
No I'm not worse off. My shoes fit me fine, they're not uncomfortable and they're really good looking which is the reason I chose them. I'm not saying that rtw will fit better nor did I imply otherwise but stating that I'm somehow worse off for not having bespoke is the pinnacle of stupidity.

If anything I'd be worse off if I DID buy bespoke, sure the shoes maybe slightly more comfortable but I'd also be in financial ruin, I'd have a style that probably wouldn't be to my taste and I'd be getting irritated because I have 0 patience and I'd rather force feed myself a donkey's ass than wait months for a pair of shoes to be made.

In reality I'm far better off with rtw otherwise I'd be compromising on everything else just so I could have a more comfy shoe.... How's that for logic?
post #16349 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemo79 View Post

No I'm not worse off. My shoes fit me fine, they're not uncomfortable and they're really good looking which is the reason I chose them. I'm not saying that rtw will fit better nor did I imply otherwise but stating that I'm somehow worse off for not having bespoke is the pinnacle of stupidity.

If anything I'd be worse off if I DID buy bespoke, sure the shoes maybe slightly more comfortable but I'd also be in financial ruin, I'd have a style that probably wouldn't be to my taste and I'd be getting irritated because I have 0 patience and I'd rather force feed myself a donkey's ass than wait months for a pair of shoes to be made.

In reality I'm far better off with rtw otherwise I'd be compromising on everything else just so I could have a more comfy shoe.... How's that for logic?

^Not good at all, really...

 

As for the pinnacle of stupidity, how on Earth would you get a bespoke shoe in a style that wouldnt be to your taste?

 

I will try this one last time: You are worse off in terms of fit by choosing RTW over Bespoke. There may be a number of other reasons that RTW is a better choice for you than Bespoke, inclusive of price, delivery time, etc. Fit is not reason to choose RTW over Bespoke. 

post #16350 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavro23 View Post
 

^Not good at all, really...

 

As for the pinnacle of stupidity, how on Earth would you get a bespoke shoe in a style that wouldnt be to your taste?

 

I will try this one last time: You are worse off in terms of fit by choosing RTW over Bespoke. There may be a number of other reasons that RTW is a better choice for you than Bespoke, inclusive of price, delivery time, etc. Fit is not reason to choose RTW over Bespoke. 

 

No.  Hell no.  Theoretically, you are right, but in practice you are wrong.

 

Have you visited the bespoke shoe thread?  There are unworn pairs by top makers because they don't fit, and there are fugly poorly made pairs by unknown makers that fits like a bag.

 

Bespoke is a process, not a destination.  Fit will improve over time but will be off initially, thus trial fittings/shoes and the continuous feedback after the shoes are delivered.

 

No, bespoke shoes doesn't always fit better than RTW.  Neither does bespoke suits always fit better than RTW.  Makers play a huge factor as well as their service and how tolerant (or intolerant) the customers are.

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