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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 1057

post #15841 of 19059
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Unlike many here (maybe even most), I've been doing little else for over forty years (thinking about shoemaking and its implications and the significance or the creative life, at least) .

Here's a thought...forty years in the making:

All this concern for the "masses"... it's misplaced.

First and foremost, it's just another word for "average," for dumbed-down so that no one can object. No complains, no disagreement. Just a near inaudible sussuration of content. No highs, no lows, no brilliance, no failures. But also no Mozarts, no Da Vincis, no Archimedes, no John Nelson Hefford.

And second, the masses will always take care of themselves. That's why they are the masses. No force in human history / experience carries more weight, exerts more influence than the masses. All human existence revolves around the masses.

Third, despite all that, it is not the masses that drive human evolution...genetic or social. It' s the "sports," the oddballs, the mutations, the thinkers-outside-the-box. Nature throws them up now and again to get the masses off their collective duffs.

The masses can take care of themselves. They are well represented.

The poor mutants are not...pitchforks not withstanding.

That's why this forum exists--to distinguish between to the mundane and the "examined (sic) life." To represent the "anti-masses"--refinement, achievement, excellence (if only of perception), in other words.

People coming to this forum and encountering this perspective for the first time are very often unable to grasp the fundamentals. They pine away for their Walmarts.

But they always have an opinion even in the absence of long-term consideration..

edited for punctuation and clarity

Hmmm...funny that ideas from the left field that are eventually recognised as groundbreaking actually requires adoption by the masses. Would you like me to list down the plethora of left field ideas now consigned to the dustbin of history?
A word of advice- dont ever assume that your audience comprise of idiots whose opinions are unworthy. You have no idea who you are dealing with, and it is best not to make assumptions. Your perspective is unique, but it may be wise to consider things from multiple angles with multiple models. Otherwise one ends up with man with a hammer syndrome, where every problem is a nail.
post #15842 of 19059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petepan View Post


Hmmm...funny that ideas from the left field that are eventually recognised as groundbreaking actually requires adoption by the masses. Would you like me to list down the plethora of left field ideas now consigned to the dustbin of history?
A word of advice- dont ever assume that your audience comprise of idiots whose opinions are unworthy. You have no idea who you are dealing with, and it is best not to make assumptions. Your perspective is unique, but it may be wise to consider things from multiple angles with multiple models. Otherwise one ends up with man with a hammer syndrome, where every problem is a nail.

Lawdy this thread is really taking a turn - was I really being insulted "your audience comprise of idiots whose opinions are unworthy"?

I never spotted that one - must be all the solvents in the shoe polish eating my brain cells.

Thanks for the heads up Mr Petepan :sarcasm:

post #15843 of 19059
I love Travers. I don't agree with everything he says about shoe care and I call him out on it. He may get riled up quickly about things, but I find him to be highly entertaining. If anything it shows a passion and if that passion unsettles you maybe the internet isn't for you.
post #15844 of 19059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petepan View Post

Hmmm...funny that ideas from the left field that are eventually recognised as groundbreaking actually requires adoption by the masses. Would you like me to list down the plethora of left field ideas now consigned to the dustbin of history?
A word of advice- dont ever assume that your audience comprise of idiots whose opinions are unworthy. You have no idea who you are dealing with, and it is best not to make assumptions.

On the contrary...how about listing all the ideas coming from the masses that changed history. Try to stay positive here. Even the Magna Carta came from the elite.

I don't think I am making assumptions...well, perhaps the apparently justified assumption that you are relatively new to the forum...and don't know who you are dealing with---no, not me...I'm just a dumb shoemaker, trying to crawl out of the dustbin of history despite being consigned there by the masses.

As far as whether opinions are worthy or not...I am always comforted by the sage advice of isaac Asimov who said...I paraphrase, if I may...that there is, and always has been, a current of anti-intellectualism in this country that believes that unfounded opinions are just as valid as hard-earned knowledge.

Or the folksy observation that opinions are like backsides (ahem)--everybody has one but they're seldom worth sniffing.
post #15845 of 19059

I was still puzzling over

"People coming to this forum and encountering this perspective for the first time are very often unable to grasp the fundamentals. They pine away for their Walmarts"

The problem is I misread it in the first place and was really confused why he was talking about walnuts. Kind of made more sense with Walmarts though.

post #15846 of 19059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berners15 View Post

I was still puzzling over
"People coming to this forum and encountering this perspective for the first time are very often unable to grasp the fundamentals. They pine away for their Walmarts"
The problem is I misread it in the first place and was really confused why he was talking about walnuts. Kind of made more sense with Walmarts though.

Quite a lot of puzzlement and misunderstanding comes from mis-reading or simply not really reading.

Why be in a conversation or discussion or on a forum if you aren't interested in (or at least tolerant enough to suffer) the other fellow's point of view? All of it? In context. (my use of "you" is not personal here)

Soliloquies are better done in front of a mirror. At least you have the full attention of the other party.
post #15847 of 19059
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

If anything it shows a passion and if that passion unsettles you maybe the internet isn't for you.

It bears repeating.
post #15848 of 19059
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

On the contrary...how about listing all the ideas coming from the masses that changed history. Try to stay positive here. Even the Magna Carta came from the elite.

I don't think I am making assumptions...well, perhaps the apparently justified assumption that you are relatively new to the forum...and don't know who you are dealing with---no, not me...I'm just a dumb shoemaker, trying to crawl out of the dustbin of history despite being consigned there by the masses.

As far as whether opinions are worthy or not...I am always comforted by the sage advice of isaac Asimov who said...I paraphrase, if I may...that there is, and always has been, a current of anti-intellectualism in this country that believes that unfounded opinions are just as valid as hard-earned knowledge.

Or the folksy observation that opinions are like backsides (ahem)--everybody has one but they're seldom worth sniffing.

It is not about staying positive. You have fallen into the common error of survivorship bias. After all, only the victors get to write history, dont you agree?

In fact, you might have missed the point entirely. The ideas that you talk about made their historical mark precisely because the ideas are aimed towards advancement of the masses, not merely the advancement of a select elite. There is a living example for you to look at, Mr Elon Musk.

In your repeated romantisation of the art of bespoke shoemaking, and bemoaning the factories and their profit making, you have turned the argument into an artificial and arbitrary divide. If you are truly visionary, perhaps you might actually consider how the essential concepts from both bespoke and mass production of shoes could actually be combined in a novel approach using new methodology including but not limited to utilisation of technology. Bitchin and moanin on an online forum is not exactly a disruptive or innovative idea.

You have quoted Asimov before. Another example of lacuna thinking from you. What makes you think I am in the same country he is referring to?

And no, opinions are not like assholes. The latter is only limited to one per person.
post #15849 of 19059
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

Was that outburst really such a big threat to to stability of the SF firmament? Seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Do we know for a fact that Fok only gives permanent bans? Isn't it possible he just sent Travers to "time-out" for a month or so?
post #15850 of 19059
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

I love Travers. I don't agree with everything he says about shoe care and I call him out on it. He may get riled up quickly about things, but I find him to be highly entertaining. If anything it shows a passion and if that passion unsettles you maybe the internet isn't for you.

I dont think it is the passion, more just the intolerant and hostile attitude clearly apparent in his ripostes to any criticism or challenges to his viewpoint.
post #15851 of 19059
I don't think DW bemoans profit making. I think he just points out that you should call a spade a spade and shouldn't be convinced something is more than it really is.
post #15852 of 19059
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

I don't think DW bemoans profit making. I think he just points out that you should call a spade a spade and shouldn't be convinced something is more than it really is.

I happen to disagree that is all DW is advocating here. The last three posting from him show this to be manifestly not the case. And if I remember correctly, his staunch argument is that excellence in shoemaking and maximisation of profits are mutually exclusives objectives. Lets explore that assertion and see whether it is necesaarily true.
post #15853 of 19059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petepan View Post

I dont think it is the passion, more just the intolerant and hostile attitude clearly apparent in his ripostes to any criticism or challenges to his viewpoint.

I challenge him often and he doesn't get hostile to me. I think he was hostile towards that one guy recently because he had an attitude and some sort of complex.
post #15854 of 19059
I mean does it really matter what ones intentions are? In the end It is your choice to interpret one's words in such a way that benefits your well being.
post #15855 of 19059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petepan View Post

It is not about staying positive. You have fallen into the common error of survivorship bias. After all, only the victors get to write history, dont you agree?

In fact, you might have missed the point entirely. The ideas that you talk about made their historical mark precisely because the ideas are aimed towards advancement of the masses, not merely the advancement of a select elite. There is a living example for you to look at, Mr Elon Musk.

In your repeated romantisation of the art of bespoke shoemaking, and bemoaning the factories and their profit making, you have turned the argument into an artificial and arbitrary divide. If you are truly visionary, perhaps you might actually consider how the essential concepts from both bespoke and mass production of shoes could actually be combined in a novel approach using new methodology including but not limited to utilisation of technology. Bitchin and moanin on an online forum is not exactly a disruptive or innovative idea.

You have quoted Asimov before. Another example of lacuna thinking from you. What makes you think I am in the same country he is referring to?

And no, opinions are not like assholes. The latter is only limited to one per person.

Carfeful you're approaching the same level of incoherence as...well, you know who.

it's a misreading or misunderstanding of history to think that the Magna Carta was drafted with the masses in mind. If that's not "romantic" illusion I don't know what is. Even the Declaration of Independence...which people assume to be the foundation of general rights was written by and for an elite--landowners.

Wisdom is where you find it, repetition notwithstanding. Apparently you think that because you...am I reading this right?...are not from the US, that you're immune to such observations--no real affinity or association with the masses, I guess.
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