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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 1046

post #15676 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post
 

The heat is some sort of "ironing" that works with the creamy compound.

 

The seam is literally called "heel seams". I've seen this a lot, from bespoke shoes to even combat boots in the 60s - 70s.

There are many ways to piece a heal so you have different types of "hells seems" and different tecniques; dart, dogtail, side seam, patched, back seam "open", back seem open and stiched- down...(DW, Bengal and I think Chogall were very kind with this issue)

 

What I meant is that I did not know the type of heel seam this manufacter used in this model and I am not capable to translate it.

post #15677 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

I think this is one area I will disagree with you on DW. Water isn't good for leather, it may not be immediately detrimental, but it definitely sets up the leather protein to slowly start breaking bonds with everything that makes it leather. I think, if you want to burnish leather you should do so with waxes and creams that don't have influence on the leather constituent pH. It maybe be a traditional way of doing things, but modern leather science says otherwise.

No worries...

That said, it strikes me as odd then, your preference for Lexol or Leather Doctor products. Unless the "active ingredients" in these products somehow transmute the water into something else entirely, I don't see how they can mitigate the ill effects of the water ...which acts as a carrier for them.

Mind, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you or the science but almost from the beginning of its life as leather, leather is processed and exposed to water and repeated wetting. Tanning itself is a water intensive procedure. It could be argued that making shoes would be impossible without water.

Colour me skeptical...and reserving judgement.
post #15678 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapasman View Post

There are many ways to piece a heal so you have different types of "hells seems" and different tecniques; dart, dogtail, side seam, patched, back seam "open", back seem open and stiched- down...(DW, Bengal and I think Chogall were very kind with this issue)

What I meant is that I did not know the type of heel seam this manufacter used in this model and I am not capable to translate it.

First, the heated burnishing iron is an old technique and not necessarily dependent on creams as much as moisture (water?) in the leather.

In fact, I would be hesitant...I'm from Missouri--you have to "show me"...to use creams simply because of th eoil content, as oil holds heat better than water. And heat is far more detrimental to leather than water.

Second, the explanation that the maker offered you is bogus. I have made those darted seam many times--it's one of my favourite techniques--and it doesn't result in that kind of problem. The leather doesn't even have to be thin, it's just 'loose" and "flanky." There's a significant disconnect between a loose and open corium and the grain surface.
post #15679 of 19061
Water itself isn't great because of the pH. Nothing else. Lexol and leather doctor products are water based but they have other ingredients that adjust the pH to be leather safe. When leather is made and it is complete the hide is in an acidic state. As it raises nuetral to alkaline the ionic bonds of the tannage and any potential ionic fatliquors will repel the protein fibers of the hide and cause it essentially start to become rawhide. Again water isn't going to immediately do this, but slowly these bonds are weakening.
post #15680 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapasman View Post


What I meant is that I did not know the type of heel seam this manufacter used in this model and I am not capable to translate it.

That's not a heel seam (which will go from top to bottom) but a "dart": a partial seam which is designed to take out fullness and give shape.
post #15681 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Water itself isn't great because of the pH. Nothing else. Lexol and leather doctor products are water based but they have other ingredients that adjust the pH to be leather safe. When leather is made and it is complete the hide is in an acidic state. As it raises nuetral to alkaline the ionic bonds of the tannage and any potential ionic fatliquors will repel the protein fibers of the hide and cause it essentially start to become rawhide. Again water isn't going to immediately do this, but slowly these bonds are weakening.

Which explains why if vegetable tanned leather is completely soaked, they'll look like actual skin before having a chance to dry.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post


That's not a heel seam (which will go from top to bottom) but a "dart": a partial seam which is designed to take out fullness and give shape.

That's helpful! I always thought it was a heel seam. 

post #15682 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


First, the heated burnishing iron is an old technique and not necessarily dependent on creams as much as moisture (water?) in the leather.



Second, the explanation that the maker offered you is bogus. I have made those darted seam many times--it's one of my favourite techniques--and it doesn't result in that kind of problem. The leather doesn't even have to be thin, it's just 'loose" and "flanky." There's a significant disconnect between a loose and open corium and the grain surface.

I thought the heat iron was to adapt the upper perfectly to the shape of the last, not to burnish the leather?.

 

And yes, it is a bogus explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post


That's not a heel seam (which will go from top to bottom) but a "dart": a partial seam which is designed to take out fullness and give shape.

I thought that the seam at the heel of the pic was not exactly a dart, as far as this one is an internal seam. I stay corrected. 

post #15683 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

Which explains why if vegetable tanned leather is completely soaked, they'll look like actual skin before having a chance to dry.

That's helpful! I always thought it was a heel seam. 

A lot of staining and ills do to spills and such are just due to something being absorbed that is higher in pH. Remember the guy who's spotted up tannish shoes posted here and I suggested vinegar? Boom, it worked.
post #15684 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapasman View Post
 

I thought the heat iron was to adapt the upper perfectly to the shape of the last, not to burnish the leather?.

When you want the upper to mold to the last, you don't use heat, you use moisture. Steam is a good way, although steam on high heat can ruin the process. Traditionally, shoemakers dampened or even wet the upper. The upper is then left to rest on the last until it is dry. Some slight conforming, consistent strike of hammers can be done through out, however, you don't heat, or iron, the upper. 

post #15685 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post


A lot of staining and ills do to spills and such are just due to something being absorbed that is higher in pH. Remember the guy who's spotted up tannish shoes posted here and I suggested vinegar? Boom, it worked.

+1. And those are also saturation of the grain/finish. 

 

Wonder if they were ever aware of such things when they first bought those shoes, though.

post #15686 of 19061
I don't understand light brown shoes to begin with...
post #15687 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapasman View Post

I thought the heat iron was to adapt the upper perfectly to the shape of the last, not to burnish the leather?.

Yes, but before electric versions were invented / became available, burnishing irons were used.

The odd thing is that we call many of these "collices"--hand held, manually heated tools "burnishing irons' because they melt and "burnish" wax into the surface of the leather.

"Burnishing" the bottom of a leather outsole with unheated wood or bone, the leather heel stack prior to applying stain or wax, the sized flesh on a waxed calf leather...or the edge of a saddle skirt with canvas or wood, for that matter...is an entirely different process. Yet it's all "burnishing." puzzled.gif
post #15688 of 19061

Ok...got it.:fonz:

post #15689 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Yes, but before electric versions were invented / became available, burnishing irons were used.

The odd thing is that we call many of these "collices"--hand held, manually heated tools "burnishing irons' because they melt and "burnish" wax into the surface of the leather.

"Burnishing" the bottom of a leather outsole with unheated wood or bone, the leather heel stack prior to applying stain or wax, the sized flesh on a waxed calf leather...or the edge of a saddle skirt with canvas or wood, for that matter...is an entirely different process. Yet it's all "burnishing." puzzled.gif

FWIW, certain people take the word "burnishing" to a level unrecognizable. LOL!
post #15690 of 19061

Thank you all (Patrick, Trav & DW) for the input on my situation. I understand there's a lot of options in leather repair/care and hearing all the different options possible is quite intriguing. 

 

To be more specific with my goal, the bag has to look uniform in color, as it's a handmade gift. Luckily I do have a lot of leather samples I can attempt these treatments on first before touching the bag. 

 

The options so far:

1. Gently rub with Reno'mat / apply similar color cream

2. Condition / burnish leather (would avoid using water in this case as the leather wasn't been conditioned for months)

3. Condition / spray dye leather

 

If it's interesting for thread, I can show my attempts using all the methods above on semi dyed pieces of leather. This whole bag situation has been an incredible learning experience in just how mind-numbingly difficult leather care/repair can be.

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