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post #15331 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

If the shoemaker, or the leather supplier, does not supply the leather of my request, I would still accept dyed veg. tanned hides. 

Who do you have make your shoes? I've only done a handful of MTOs (and never done bespoke) but I guess I've never gone into the detail of requesting that much information about the leather they are using. Who you use and what leather do they have available?
post #15332 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


"Black"?? Where did that come from?

Both sides of the skin may be dyed and the leather still not struck through...you wouldn't expect the leather to be dyed only on the grain surface and the fleshside left chrome blue, would you?

And, FWIW, as someone who has used chrome and veg and retan, I disagree with your assessment of retan.

Sorry. I was supposed to ask for why they were always seen dyed on both sides, since it appears black on black, or brown on brown, blue on blue... and so forth.

 

In regards to the flesh side being colored, I cannot see a specific reason to why the flesh side being dyed when the whole skin itself is not struck through. It's weird, to say the least, out of respect.

 

I know my assessment of retan is harsh. I cannot expect everybody, especially a shoemaker, to totally agree with me.

post #15333 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred G. Unn View Post


Who do you have make your shoes? I've only done a handful of MTOs (and never done bespoke) but I guess I've never gone into the detail of requesting that much information about the leather they are using. Who you use and what leather do they have available?

Fred, I have yet the time to go to a bespoke shoemaker. I'm trying to clear my schedule just for a gasp of air. There is even a possibility of moving from Washington, Pacific North West, to California. The situation posted above is just a proposed hypothesis, and thus, should not be really taken to heart. However, if anything, I will always try and request for leather's information from the maker, even talking to the tannery if I have to. 

 

Apart from aesthetic requirement, construction, and last shape, the last step is to choose either a suitable or a top grade material to go with the design. Sad on how this last step is often set aside.  

post #15334 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

Veg retanned is a hybrid crap, really. 

Undyed vegetable tanned is the highest of the standard I look for. If the shoemaker, or the leather supplier, does not supply the leather of my request, I would still accept dyed veg. tanned hides. 

Wait what? The exact tannin recipes are trade secrets to each firm. How could you says hat veg tanned shoes are hybrid crap without knowing anything about it?!?
post #15335 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post


In regards to the flesh side being colored, I cannot see a specific reason to why the flesh side being dyed when the whole skin itself is not struck through. It's weird, to say the least, out of respect.

No, it's not weird, I suspect it's just a function of the way the leather is dyed--the mechanics of dyeing. I am pretty sure that they dip the whole hide in a dye bath.

The thing is that when you dye a piece of leather with a sponge, for instance, rather than a bath, the dye tends to "strike" unevenly. So you end up with something that looks a lot like museum calf...which is very rustic and appealing to some but fundamentally unevenly coloured. (How museum calf is actually dyed...I don't know).

Dipping or running the hide through a dye bath will strike evenly...and, by default, on both sides.

And incidentally, it's good marketing.
post #15336 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

Sorry. I was supposed to ask for why they were always seen dyed on both sides, since it appears black on black, or brown on brown, blue on blue... and so forth.

In regards to the flesh side being colored, I cannot see a specific reason to why the flesh side being dyed when the whole skin itself is not struck through. It's weird, to say the least, out of respect.

I know my assessment of retan is harsh. I cannot expect everybody, especially a shoemaker, to totally agree with me.

1. Drummed dyed. When hide is in a drum they don't have much choic of which side contacts the dye.
2. Don't think many shoemakers will agree with you at all; at most they will decline to answer. Besides, any tanneries agree with your outlandish and made-up claims?
post #15337 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

Fred, I have yet the time to go to a bespoke shoemaker. I'm trying to clear my schedule just for a gasp of air. There is even a possibility of moving from Washington, Pacific North West, to California. The situation posted above is just a proposed hypothesis, and thus, should not be really taken to heart. However, if anything, I will always try and request for leather's information from the maker, even talking to the tannery if I have to. 

Apart from aesthetic requirement, construction, and last shape, the last step is to choose either a suitable or a top grade material to go with the design. Sad on how this last step is often set aside.  

You can always ask tailors to make jackets with shirt fabric, umbrella makers to make umbrella with Kleenex tissues, or shoemakers to make shoes with oak bark veg tanned outsold leather.

They will politely refuse your request and recommend proper materials for the bespoken item.
post #15338 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


1. Drummed dyed. When hide is in a drum they don't have much choic of which side contacts the dye.
2. Don't think many shoemakers will agree with you at all; at most they will decline to answer. Besides, any tanneries agree with your outlandish and made-up claims?

1. Read my quote again.

2. Claims are all made-up. Only evidence should back them up. I have plenty of evidence backing my claim. It's just that I am too tiresome these days to go for the whiny bull crap. If the shoemaker declines to answer, I have no choice but to terminate the project, because I have the right to know. It's not like RTW, where that right is nowhere valid enough. I don't need tanneries to agree with me, because tanneries benefits themselves personally through selling craps for a lot of times.

post #15339 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


You can always ask tailors to make jackets with shirt fabric, umbrella makers to make umbrella with Kleenex tissues, or shoemakers to make shoes with oak bark veg tanned outsold leather.

They will politely refuse your request and recommend proper materials for the bespoken item.

If anything, I'll bring my own material. It isn't like such thing had never happened. 

 

Take note of my statement, because before you can recall to look back at my posts, I said I was going to curry some traditional reversed waxed calf, so it should not be too weird.

post #15340 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


No, it's not weird, I suspect it's just a function of the way the leather is dyed--the mechanics of dyeing. I am pretty sure that they dip the whole hide in a dye bath.

The thing is that when you dye a piece of leather with a sponge, for instance, rather than a bath, the dye tends to "strike" unevenly. So you end up with something that looks a lot like museum calf...which is very rustic and appealing to some but fundamentally unevenly coloured. (How museum calf is actually dyed...I don't know).

Dipping or running the hide through a dye bath will strike evenly...and, by default, on both sides.

And incidentally, it's good marketing.

I think we, especially myself though, may have largely abused the term "struck through" then, because the way I see it, the dye does not go anywhere through, as you put it. "Drum dyed" is the correct mechanical term, would it?

post #15341 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

If the shoemaker declines to answer, I have no choice but to terminate the project, because I have the right to know.

I guess this is your right, but based on your statement a few posts earlier, you have never actually worked with a shoemaker before, correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

If anything, I'll bring my own material. It isn't like such thing had never happened. 

Will a shoemaker really do this, and work with a material they are unfamiliar with? There was a guy over on AAAC last fall that was having E. Vogel make him a pair of shoes, but then wanted to source the material himself, then source the JR soles, etc. It was a complete clusterfuck. The guy ended up getting banned (not completely surprised) so I never heard how it turned out, but I imagine most shoemakers would want to work with materials that they are familiar with, especially for a first time client.
post #15342 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

1. Read my quote again.
2. Claims are all made-up. Only evidence should back them up. I have plenty of evidence backing my claim. It's just that I am too tiresome these days to go for the whiny bull crap. If the shoemaker declines to answer, I have no choice but to terminate the project, because I have the right to know. It's not like RTW, where that right is nowhere valid enough. I don't need tanneries to agree with me, because tanneries benefits themselves personally through selling craps for a lot of times.

1. You've asked why it's dyed both side. I've told you it's most likely drum dyed.

2. You don't seem to have much experience with higher quality shoes and are extrapolating your [mass production] shoes experiences to interpret your expectation for higher quality shoes. Your experience with 30-50 years old [mass produced] [military surplus] chrome tanned combat boots simply does not apply to shooting boots made by high end RTW makers or bespoke, using high quality box calf or other chrome tanned leathers.
post #15343 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred G. Unn View Post


I guess this is your right, but based on your statement a few posts earlier, you have never actually worked with a shoemaker before, correct?
Will a shoemaker really do this, and work with a material they are unfamiliar with? There was a guy over on AAAC last fall that was having E. Vogel make him a pair of shoes, but then wanted to source the material himself, then source the JR soles, etc. It was a complete clusterfuck. The guy ended up getting banned (not completely surprised) so I never heard how it turned out, but I imagine most shoemakers would want to work with materials that they are familiar with, especially for a first time client.

Well, I don't want much, just vegetable tanned calf. I don't think if that's too hard. It's the upper I'm most concerned with, and it SHOULD be the upper that gets discussed. Otherwise, I have to really say, that guy was a complete douche bag. What he was doing is too much an insult, if anything.

post #15344 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

I think we, especially myself though, may have largely abused the term "struck through" then, because the way I see it, the dye does not go anywhere through, as you put it. "Drum dyed" is the correct mechanical term, would it?

I think, esp. in certain segments of the tanning industry, drum dyed and struck through are synonymous. That said, some of my sources insist on "struck through" to indicate a leather that is dyed the same colour all the way through...no blue or contrasting core.

I have other suppliers--Horween among them--who use the term drum dyed to refer to a leather that is struck through.

But having said that, I have seen "drum dyed" leather that was not "struck through"...and Horween was the supplier...chief among them, in any case.
post #15345 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

Well, I don't want much, just vegetable tanned calf. I don't think if that's too hard. It's the upper I'm most concerned with, and it SHOULD be the upper that gets discussed. Otherwise, I have to really say, that guy was a complete douche bag. What he was doing is too much an insult, if anything.

Are you going to ask for veg tanned linings and sock linings as well? While you are at it, why not specify the type of leather dyes used to stain the upper and sole edges?
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