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post #15301 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Well, I like the looks of the St. Crispin's Baby Calf. As far as I know it is 100% veg--a dyed crust. I think it is a bit thin for men's shoes. I've spoken to Tony about it and he showed me some samples of a thicker product but when I went to order, it wasn't available. One of our members spent here on SF some time with Janne Melkerssohn and they had trouble with it tearing.

But it is not the only vegetable tanned upper leather I have seen or used. That said, there isn't much available in the US. Whenever I get a hide that is reported to be 100% veg, I burn a snippet. If the ash is 100% black and crusty, I am satisfied that it is as advertised. If it is a retan there will be turquoise ash in the residue. If it is pure chrome the ash will be an intense greenish blue.

I'd use more if I could get it. Hell, if I has a proper drum dying set up nearby, I'd buy up heavy (3-4 oz.) veg kips and dye them bespoke.

And having said that, I don't mind retans really. I use a lot of buffalo calf in one form or another and it's almost all retan (can't think of any that wasn't). I like it. Done properly, I don't really see a downside.

Speaking of veg tanned leathers and dubbin,oils etc., I use a vegetable tanned lining leather (many high end makers do) and it never gets conditioned with anything. Yet it never seems to crack or dry out either.

I can't speak to whether chrome could be produced as a crust. Of course it could, because all that really means is that it has not been finished. But it would look like hell. And having said that I've seen shoes that were purportedly crust leather (to be dyed and antiqued, etc,) that looks pretty white/grey for even a retan.

Just sayin'.

edited for punctuation and clarity

Leather goes through curing, beamhouse/preparing, tanning, dressing, and the finishing.

In the tanning process there's veg tan, chrome tan, combination, or chrome tan veg retan. Box/willow calf are traditionally chrome tanned and most thought after.

A lot of those ugly wet blue trace of chrome tan is washed away during dressing, where chemicals are added for suppleness and color.
post #15302 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

You really have to put some thought into this - no tannage, not even combo tan, can produce fine crust calf. It isn't like veg tanned crust calf is rare. They are plenty out there. It's just that, come to think of it, chrome tanned hides are way too cheap to look away for certain makers. The traits of St. Crispin's calfs are pure veg tanned can be proven by the fact that they will fade colors away, even through normal wearing (I've seen tons of examples). 

Color fading is contributed mostly from the finishing, not tanning method. Coated leathers such as box/willow calf or printed leathers don't lose color easily. And uncoated leathers such as those 'crust' calf loses color faster as they don't have top coat protection.

Most bespoke maker offering 'crust' leathers shows faded color before finishing and rich and deep color after finishing. What you have described is the reverse of the finishing effect.
post #15303 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


Color fading is contributed mostly from the finishing, not tanning method. Coated leathers such as box/willow calf or printed leathers don't lose color easily. And uncoated leathers such as those 'crust' calf loses color faster as they don't have top coat protection.

Most bespoke maker offering 'crust' leathers shows faded color before finishing and rich and deep color after finishing. What you have described is the reverse of the finishing effect.

I forgot to add, it's not the color fading that is the important trait, but what kind of shade reveals underneath. If it's bluish, you know the drill. If it's white or light tan, it's vegetable tanned crust. 

 

I want leathers to fade like how the finish on crust calf lose over time. THAT is how leather should age. 

 

Box and willow calfskins are not simply coated. They are drum dyed. Otherwise, they'll reveal that ugly, sick looking blue shade.

post #15304 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

I forgot to add, it's not the color fading that is the important trait, but what kind of shade reveals underneath. If it's bluish, you know the drill. If it's white or light tan, it's vegetable tanned crust. 

I want leathers to fade like how the finish on crust calf lose over time. THAT is how leather should age. 

Box and willow calfskins are not simply coated. They are drum dyed. Otherwise, they'll reveal that ugly, sick looking blue shade.

Wet blue color is removed during the dressing stage of process.

Those semi finished crust leather that you adore will just return to their unfinished colors over time, e.g., navy burnished going back to light blue crust.

Your idea of how leather age is more dependent on the dressing and finishing of leather rather than tanning.
post #15305 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


Wet blue color is removed during the dressing stage of process.

Those semi finished crust leather that you adore will just return to their unfinished colors over time, e.g., navy burnished going back to light blue crust.

Your idea of how leather age is more dependent on the dressing and finishing of leather rather than tanning.

http://www.leather-eshop.com/Natural-Crust-Calfskin-Side.htm - now that's a veg tanned crust worth talking about.

 

Wet blue color, if removed, then we are left with a bleached leather, which, in many ways, the natural surface will have to be artificially coated.

 

And, no, chogall, the idea is that all vegetable tanned leather, if not drum dyed, will age a lot better than chromed leathers. I have been saying this for many times, and even said that was why I prefer veg tanned leathers. Dressing is more so for the preservation of the leather, and finishing, well, I do agree with Pat that self finishing is a lot cooler, although, in my personal preference, I only like surface dyed veg tan calfskins. 

post #15306 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

http://www.leather-eshop.com/Natural-Crust-Calfskin-Side.htm - now that's a veg tanned crust worth talking about.

Wet blue color, if removed, then we are left with a bleached leather, which, in many ways, the natural surface will have to be artificially coated.

And, no, chogall, the idea is that all vegetable tanned leather, if not drum dyed, will age a lot better than chromed leathers. I have been saying this for many times, and even said that was why I prefer veg tanned leathers. Dressing is more so for the preservation of the leather, and finishing, well, I do agree with Pat that self finishing is a lot cooler, although, in my personal preference, I only like surface dyed veg tan calfskins. 

How do you determine that leather is 100% veg tanned or veg retain?

And again, dressing and finishing has little to do with tanning method. Chrome tanned leathers can be surface dyed as well.
post #15307 of 19068
And what is the difference and expectations of surfaced dyed chrome tanned leathers and struck through dyed leather?
post #15308 of 19068
"Carmina has a leather they call "vegano" that they use a lot but this is actually chrome tanned"

What type of chrome is vegano leather used by carmina?
I noticed. It seems that they are surfaced dyed
post #15309 of 19068
d'Annonay tannery has Vagano leather. Not sure if it's the same one Carmkna is using.

Struck through leather don't really lose their base color from my experience.

G&G crust leather samples have colored underside thus they are most likely struck through as well.
post #15310 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


How do you determine that leather is 100% veg tanned or veg retain?

And again, dressing and finishing has little to do with tanning method. Chrome tanned leathers can be surface dyed as well.

Shooting them an email, just to be sure. That look is too convincing, however, because it's a white - tan ratio, not a bleached white.

 

And AGAIN, do some reading comprehension, goddamn it. I said I prefer the tanning method - fully vegetable tanned, in specific coloring state of the leather - natural then surface dye, even specific weight/thickness. It doesn't have to be crust calf, goddamn it, it can simply be a nice, smooth, even piece of natural vegetable tanned calfskin that fits my preference.

 

Chrome tanned leathers, when being faded over time, will look like hell, and that was why they were more so drum dyed than surface dyed. I have several pairs of combat boots from the 60s and the 80s where the toes would reveal the distinguish chrome bluish surface when they were worn.

post #15311 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

Shooting them an email, just to be sure. That look is too convincing, however, because it's a white - tan ratio, not a bleached white.

And AGAIN, do some reading comprehension, goddamn it. I said I prefer the tanning method - fully vegetable tanned, in specific coloring state of the leather - natural then surface dye, even specific weight/thickness. It doesn't have to be crust calf, goddamn it, it can simply be a nice, smooth, even piece of natural vegetable tanned calfskin that fits my preference.

Chrome tanned leathers, when being faded over time, will look like hell, and that was why they were more so drum dyed than surface dyed. I have several pairs of combat boots from the 60s and the 80s where the toes would reveal the distinguish chrome bluish surface when they were worn.

Read what you wrote.

You claimed chrome tanned faded looks like hell, which is not always true. There are low grade leather boots with wet blue color showing underneath. But there are also top grade chrome tanned leather that age very well. See: vintage box calf, museum calf. Even those vintage John Lobb SJ bespoke don't look remotely like hell as you've claimed. Here's a pair by Tuzcek dating around 1930s with most likely black box calf.



You claimed chrome tanned doesn't age as well as veg tanned. You are more than welcomed to search for more vintage box and willow calf bespoke shoes to validate your own claim.

You lumped all chrome tanned leather in the same category, which is ignorant as some chrome tanned leather goes through veg retan.

I respect your preference. And there are makers who make shoes in that hand stained raw leather style, such as Bestetti or Meccariello. What I disagree on is you dessiminating misleading information.
post #15312 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


Read what you wrote.

You claimed chrome tanned faded looks like hell, which is not always true. There are low grade leather boots with wet blue color showing underneath. But there are also top grade chrome tanned leather that age very well. See: vintage box calf, museum calf. Even those vintage John Lobb SJ bespoke don't look remotely like hell as you've claimed. Here's a pair by Tuzcek dating around 1930s with most likely black box calf.



You claimed chrome tanned doesn't age as well as veg tanned. You are more than welcomed to search for more vintage box and willow calf bespoke shoes to validate your own claim.

You lumped all chrome tanned leather in the same category, which is ignorant as some chrome tanned leather goes through veg retan.

I respect your preference. And there are makers who make shoes in that hand stained raw leather style, such as Bestetti or Meccariello. What I disagree on is you dessiminating misleading information.

I can at least appreciate your respect of my preference. Thank you.

 

However, here's why I said what I said.

 

Look at the pair of boots you posted for reference. Do you see any particular worthwhile cosmetic aging value? Do you see any sign of it being "naturally aged" apart from the creasing and wrinkling from wearing? No! This is what happens to chrome tanned leather. They don't age at all. They just get worn, worn and worn, and only then to await for cosmetic renewal. It's the same case for museum calf. I've seen many cases of museum calf bleeding its color, or age in an awful way, because the chromed blue does not play well with the tan-esque brown. They may have value as a fine pair of shoes, but no thanks, because with a value that low, one should rather invest in cheap Walmart sneakers.

 

Look at the way how the tannage reflects upon the leather itself. If a piece of hardware is made out of chrome, the only thing necessary to do is to keep it polished with a polish, and keep it free from fingerprints at best. 

 

Chromed leather undergoing vegetable retan rarely exhibit fine characteristics. There's water buffalo calf, as DW pointed out, which serves just fine, as he noted. However, if you care to look deeper, veg retanned is actually one of the worst failure in the history of leather making. Since it's tanning, elements can be combined to make a compound. However, a chemical compound is a different story, whereas leather's behavior will reflect a lot on their original tannage. I have yet, in my entire life time, to see anything like a hybrid of metal and wood being combined. It does not make sense, since these two elements clash against each other a lot. I cannot exactly approve CXL's worn-in appearance as true-meaning "aging". 

 

Here is what I got back from Simone of Cuoio & Pellami e.Shop, whom website I used earlier as a preference for full veg. tanned crust calf:

 

"Dear Travers,
Our crust calfskins are full veg. tanned.
Usually we sell them for shoes, but you can try.
(Don't know why Simone said such thing. I asked them for shoemaking. LOL!)
Thank you very much, we are looking forward to hearing from you soon.
Regards,

Simone."

 

While I do not have a sample to certify, if you need the email address to contact, you are more than welcome to ask for. If you need to certify this message, I would welcome some your contact through PM as well.

post #15313 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

I can at least appreciate your respect of my preference. Thank you.

However, here's why I said what I said.

Look at the pair of boots you posted for reference. Do you see any particular worthwhile cosmetic aging value? Do you see any sign of it being "naturally aged" apart from the creasing and wrinkling from wearing? No! This is what happens to chrome tanned leather. They don't age at all. They just get worn, worn and worn, and only then to await for cosmetic renewal. It's the same case for museum calf. I've seen many cases of museum calf bleeding its color, or age in an awful way, because the chromed blue does not play well with the tan-esque brown. They may have value as a fine pair of shoes, but no thanks, because with a value that low, one should rather invest in cheap Walmart sneakers.

Look at the way how the tannage reflects upon the leather itself. If a piece of hardware is made out of chrome, the only thing necessary to do is to keep it polished with a polish, and keep it free from fingerprints at best. 

Chromed leather undergoing vegetable retan rarely exhibit fine characteristics. There's water buffalo calf, as DW pointed out, which serves just fine, as he noted. However, if you care to look deeper, veg retanned is actually one of the worst failure in the history of leather making. Since it's tanning, elements can be combined to make a compound. However, a chemical compound is a different story, whereas leather's behavior will reflect a lot on their original tannage. I have yet, in my entire life time, to see anything like a hybrid of metal and wood being combined. It does not make sense, since these two elements clash against each other a lot. I cannot exactly approve CXL's worn-in appearance as true-meaning "aging". 

Here is what I got back from Simone of Cuoio & Pellami e.Shop
, whom website I used earlier as a preference for full veg. tanned crust calf:

"Dear Travers,
Our crust calfskins are full veg. tanned.
Usually we sell them for shoes, but you can try.
(Don't know why Simone said such thing. I asked them for shoemaking. LOL!)
Thank you very much, we are looking forward to hearing from you soon.
Regards,

Simone."

While I do not have a sample to certify, if you need the email address to contact, you are more than welcome to ask for. If you need to certify this message, I would welcome some your contact through PM as well.

Google is your friend.

John Lobb SJ


John Lobb Paris.


If you want a short cut to fast fading, go with hand stained/colored. Or crust which fades slightly slower. Otherwise all leather fade just like all men die.

p.s., that pair of struck through dyed black leather didnt fade well but that is also a function of wear and storage over the past 80 years.
post #15314 of 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


Google is your friend.

John Lobb SJ


John Lobb Paris.


If you want a short cut to fast fading, go with hand stained/colored. Or crust which fades slightly slower. Otherwise all leather fade just like all men die.

I would praise your philosophy.

 

However, those two samples looks very much unattractive.  Lobb's boots can use truck load of polishing, and I'd send that pair to Pat for spit-shining. The second pair looks too cosmetic - it's all too fake, if anything.

 

Fast fading isn't the key, but sufficiently faded over a reasonable amount of time and use. The color revealed beneath is also another important factor. Chrome will fade, but whatever underneath is not very desirable. 


Edited by traverscao - 6/3/15 at 1:12am
post #15315 of 19068
According to @traverscao, Chrone tanned leathers either dont age, age into its wet blue state, or age unattractively. In addition, country shooting boots need a shitload of wax and somehow display case lighting makes waxed shoes look cosmetic and fake. Like these:





Edited by chogall - 6/3/15 at 1:57am
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