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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 959

post #14371 of 19042
Quote:
Originally Posted by arduous1 View Post

Glen,

Could you tell me why anyone would want the regular over the water resistant cream, given the same price? Are there any negatives to the water resisting ingredients??

Ard1

The GlenKaren water resistant polish includes sodium bentonite, which is a clay. This clay makes the polish in the jar feel a little gritty, and although the polish becomes smooth as it is rubbed into the shoe, some people don’t like the feel of the clay and are concerned about its effect on the leather.

It should also be noted that the water resistant polish will not water proof the shoe, but simply slow down the absorption of water into the protein fibers. You could get better water proofing by using Sno-Seal, but I probably wouldn’t use it on a dress/business shoe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

Something that is waterproof keeps water in as well as out. Not always what you want, especially on a hot day.

Most water proofing products don’t hermetically seal the leather but do put a degree of water barrier on (or slightly into) the surface side of the leather. There is an actual difference between the moisture content in the leather produced by sweat and exposed to the looser corium side of the leather, versus the grain side coated in a water barrier. The moisture content in the leather (as water vapor) takes less vapor pressure to evaporate at the surface than a raindrop or puddle of water does to pass the water barrier. This is an aspect of Water Activity which is the science of how these things work.

Other factors to consider when thinking about moisture from the inside versus moisture from the outside. Most dress/business shoes are lined and the liner also absorbs and retains moisture. One of the reasons to use wooden shoe trees is to allow the wood to absorb the moisture from the liner (unless you have lacquered shoe trees).

Most dress/business shoes have a toe puff (that makes the toe of the shoe stiff) and an internal heel counter which will impede (or completely stop) moisture from traveling from the inside of the shoe to the outside (and visa versa) in those areas.

A foot has approximately 125,000 sweat glands, most of them are in the sole of the foot, not the instep, so most of the moisture that evaporates through the shoe upper will go through the quarters.

All that being said, a thick wax, oil or silicone barrier on (or in) the leather can impede the moisture (and/or air) enough as to not allow evaporation and the trapped moisture (which is different than Bound Water) can cause dry rot over time.
post #14372 of 19042

I seriously have to ask question, but do people get stuck in the phenomenon that any applications of waterproofing products will impede breathability of leathers? I mean, let's be real! Even some wax sealants of leather have to loosen up as wearing takes places, which is when and where moisture, or water content, escape and enter the leather.

 

Unless one just gouge out a whole block of any polish, or other products (greases, dressings, and sealing waxes), and gunk it on leathers, I don't think if there are any possibility if breathability is going to be impede simply by applying a waterproofing product.

post #14373 of 19042
Quote:
Originally Posted by glenjay View Post

This is an aspect of Water Activity which is the science of how these things work.

I didn't know that there was a "science" of Water Activity! Doh! What was I thinking? Of course there is.
Quote:
All that being said, a thick wax, oil or silicone barrier on (or in) the leather can impede the moisture (and/or air) enough as to not allow evaporation and the trapped moisture (which is different than Bound Water) can cause dry rot over time.

So...would this also apply to the occlusion produced by a waterproof neoprene cement on the fleshside of a leather insole and the fleshside of a leather outsole? Or the fleshside of a sockliner; or the neoprene cement matrix in which the cork is embedded?

Would it apply to a waterproof rubber outsole cemented, with a waterproof neoprene cement, to the grainside of a leather midsole or directly to the fleshside of an insole?
post #14374 of 19042
After my double monk... To my brogue next.

dba79cb510f85821b16b041b1a02c3ab.jpg
post #14375 of 19042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendel272 View Post

I like them. They look almost like cordovan.

I spent a while playing with dyes, using diluted solutions of fiebings oil saddle tan and walnut and burgundy, then realized the pebble grain doesnt absorb a lot. ..

Would appreciate any more info on the fiedblings...straight dye or another product? I have an older pair of ae that i need to strip and try again....thanks
post #14376 of 19042
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I didn't know that there was a "science" of Water Activity! Doh! What was I thinking? Of course there is.
So...would this also apply to the occlusion produced by a waterproof neoprene cement on the fleshside of a leather insole and the fleshside of a leather outsole? Or the fleshside of a sockliner; or the neoprene cement matrix in which the cork is embedded?

Would it apply to a waterproof rubber outsole cemented, with a waterproof neoprene cement, to the grainside of a leather midsole or directly to the fleshside of an insole?

I was addressing waterproofing products applied to the surface of a shoe upper, but of course the molecular makeup (and mass in some cases) of a given product will define its resistance to water.
post #14377 of 19042
Quote:
Originally Posted by glenjay View Post

I was addressing waterproofing products applied to the surface of a shoe upper, but of course the molecular makeup (and mass in some cases) of a given product will define its resistance to water.

I understand that but I was trying to draw a comparison between any instrument of occlusion and your assertion that dry rot was a potential result. Asking for your thoughts in this regard, is all.
post #14378 of 19042
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbuzz View Post

Would appreciate any more info on the fiedblings...straight dye or another product? I have an older pair of ae that i need to strip and try again....thanks

Sure

I started by stripping with acetone. Just wet a rag, wipe them down and repeat until the rag is coming off noticeably cleaner than it started. You may never rub with acetone and get nothing off, but you'll know when you're at a point of diminishing returns. The important thing is that at that point the wax is off and you're getting a little pigment/stain out and are through the wax.

Next I used a little conditioner, just for good measure. Nothing too oily, but I think working wet onto wet (like painting) will limit how quickly the leather absorbs it, and thus lets you blend it and prevent streakiness. I applied dyes with one end of a q-tip in ~1 square inch sections and rubbed it with the other end, making sure it dries from the outside in. This prevents the dye from pooling and leaving a sharp line, instead fading more naturally.

I did a few test passes on a piece of scrap leather (layered washes and the colors you get when you dilute the dyes). I like using a thinned dye at first to see how the leather reacts, in case it changes color quickly. Natural veg tanned leather is very thirsty. I found this pebble grain to be much more stubborn and it needed many applications of undiluted dye to get any change at all.

Every few layers, you will find that you have it looking how you wanted. It's important to wipe it down again here with acetone to take off the dyes sitting on the surface. These are the most visually impactful, but they are also the first to wear off and smudge. Washing them off makes sure you only have left the truly stained leather.

Once you get the look you are hoping for after cleaning with acetone, let the acetone evaporate. It wont take long. Then condition, condition, condition. I wiped leather conditioner on 4 or 5 times to make sure. Once this has dried completely, start polishing. I found the cream polishes to work very well at producing highlights. Lighter polishes sit on the surface, which can temper the effects of dyes which can only darken. I used the creams to get more layered effects and highlight contrasts. I went over them with waxes in pretty much the same way, but i used clear wax polish over the parts I wanted light.

I also made sure to do both shoes simultaneously. For every layer I put on one shoe, I did the same amount in the same place on the other shoe. This just made sense to me and worked well. It also let each stroke dry before applying the next. These dyes dry very fast (maybe 30 seconds) but until they do, you can't go over them with another layer.


Some thoughts on different products:
Fiebings oil dyes are spoken of highly. I have heard that they are more permanent than they other line of spirit based dyes, but I have not tested that. I use the oil/professional line when I can, but I havent found a burgundy I like as much as their spirit based one from the standard line. Their colors are very intense and concentrated. You can dilute them with acetone, or they sell a product intended for this purpose. They call it a reducer. I believe it is just alcohol. It's probably gentler and its fumes less hazardous than acetone, so I'll recommend it. I don't know if it is anything besides just alcohol wih a higher price tag, however. Definitely try the diluted dyes on anything expensive before you go with full strength dyes. This is a good way to see how it reacts, and as the reducer evaporates, you will get a stronger and stronger pigment, which can be good for seeing how strong you want it. Fiebings dyes are the only ones i have used. I have read good things about angelus, but I suspect it's six of one half a dozen of the other.

I only have AE cream polishes right now, but i believe they will be similar to saphir cream polishes, but less pigment and more conditioner by volume. I like them a lot, but I have some saphir incoming and I had a lot of fun on this pair, so I'm going to do this at least a few more times. Half the fun is seeing how different products behave, so I'll keep you posted.

I only have saphir wax polishes, and i love them. I havent tried any others, but I don't think i will. I even love the way they smell. You can catch a whiff of them throughout the day for the next few days after applying them. I'm not a fan of fragrances and don't like the idea of people associating me with a smell, but this makes your shoes smell like you just climbed a pine tree and walked back across pine needle laden moss. They don't have much pigment, but that's not what they're for. They do have a little though. I might try some complimentary colors to get a truer dark/burnish, like applying green over reddish brown to get darker brown.
Edited by Mendel272 - 3/30/15 at 6:35pm
post #14379 of 19042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendel272 View Post


Some thoughts on different products:
Fiebings oil dyes are spoken of highly. I have heard that they are more permanent than they other line of spirit based dyes, but I have not tested that. I use the oil/professional line when I can, but I havent found a burgundy I like as much as their spirit based one from the standard line. Their colors are very intense and concentrated. You can dilute them with acetone, or they sell a product intended for this purpose. They call it a reducer. I believe it is just alcohol. It's probably gentler and its fumes less hazardous than acetone, so I'll recommend it. I don't know if it is anything besides just alcohol wih a higher price tag, however. Definitely try the diluted dyes on anything expensive before you go with full strength dyes. This is a good way to see how it reacts, and as the reducer evaporates, you will get a stronger and stronger pigment, which can be good for seeing how strong you want it. Fiebings dyes are the only ones i have used. I have read good things about angelus, but I suspect it's six of one half a dozen of the other.
.
I have used professionally created spirit based aniline dyes and i have used Fiebings. Most Fiebings dyes are like the aniline dyes that are manufactured for dedicated dyeing operations. My only objection to them is that they sometimes leave a metallic bronzing effect--red in the case of black dye and green in the case of brown. The bronzing seems to change the surface of the leather, maybe burning it slightly. They profit and the bronzing can be mostly eliminated by diluting 1:1 with alcohol.

AFAIK, the oil dyes are meant exclusively for vegetable tanned leathers and primarily for harness leather--something that does not mind the residual oils that may prevent a spit shine for instance.. I would not use oil dyes on shoes...unless they were meant to be casual or work shoes.
post #14380 of 19042

The oil dye series are "wetter", prevents the leather from being dehydrated, whereas the regular dye series dry down really dry, to a point where you can achieve a glow by buffing with a brush. As for the bronzing effect, a little Lexol takes it right away.

 

I've never diluted the dyes, however. Perhaps that was because I only use blue and black.

post #14381 of 19042
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

The oil dye series are "wetter", prevents the leather from being dehydrated, whereas the regular dye series dry down really dry, to a point where you can achieve a glow by buffing with a brush. As for the bronzing effect, a little Lexol takes it right away.

I've never diluted the dyes, however. Perhaps that was because I only use blue and black.

The aniline dyes that I get from an international chemical company--Prime Leather Finishes--are stronger and strike harder than any of the Fiebings. Yet they don't bronze.

If you use Fiebings dye on the bottom (grain surface) of the outsole, for instance, and don't do some thing to ameliorate the bronzing, you'll play hell polishing it to a high shine. Again, I think it burns the leather a little. That or the bronzing really does leave a metallic residue.
post #14382 of 19042
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


The aniline dyes that I get from an international chemical company--Prime Leather Finishes--are stronger and strike harder than any of the Fiebings. Yet they don't bronze.

If you use Fiebings dye on the bottom (grain surface) of the outsole, for instance, and don't do some thing to ameliorate the bronzing, you'll play hell polishing it to a high shine. Again, I think it burns the leather a little. That or the bronzing really does leave a metallic residue.

Strange, DW, I thought Prime Leather Finishes was a US based company. I might give a try on their products.

 

When a bottle of Fiebing's dye were left in the counter for, say, 6 months (based on a bottle I bought back then :)), it does leave a flaky, sort of "metallic" residue, like how you experienced when it dries on the leather. I think this has got to do with the chemical compound they used. I suspect, or doubt even, on how much pigment they care to put into the ingredient of the dye. 

 

As of burning, yes, the dye was alcohol based, so, I reckon it dries the leather out the way stripping agents would (literally means dry beyond recognition, DW). Somehow the dye would never play nice with you if you don't use a conditioner or at the very least a neutral wax. 

 

Have you tried their so-called "CA VOC compliant Leather Color (TM)" though? I am intriguing to give it a try. After all, I'll be in CA soon. 

post #14383 of 19042
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

Strange, DW, I thought Prime Leather Finishes was a US based company. I might give a try on their products.

It is but AFAIK from talking to the chemists there they sell worldwide.
post #14384 of 19042
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


It is but AFAIK from talking to the chemists there they sell worldwide.

Yup. One step above Fiebing's, if anything :fonz:

 

How are water-based dyes, in your opinion?  

post #14385 of 19042
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

The aniline dyes that I get from an international chemical company--Prime Leather Finishes--are stronger and strike harder than any of the Fiebings. Yet they don't bronze.

If you use Fiebings dye on the bottom (grain surface) of the outsole, for instance, and don't do some thing to ameliorate the bronzing, you'll play hell polishing it to a high shine. Again, I think it burns the leather a little. That or the bronzing really does leave a metallic residue.

Where can you buy them? I have used fiebings because it is the best available to me. If you could point me in the right direction to pick up some of this stuff I would be grateful. If posting that here is against the rules, please pm me with the info.

Thanks!
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