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post #13786 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post



Actually it is just wheat flour and water. Or you can use wallpaper paste. But it shouldn't be allowed to dry, at least not completely. It requires a polished piece of rosewood, boxwood or holly--something along those lines--or bone and the paste is applied and then rubbed until a glaze forms.

edited for punctuation and clarity

--

DW, pardon me for being ignorant, but where can I find wallpaper paste, and if I could, then how do I know if it is water based and are "natural" enough to use on leather?

post #13787 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

I don't know why I have such a fascination with this stuff. I wonder if this can be done on one of horweens naked veg tanned hides on the opposite side. As we know their waxed flesh is bullshit.

Well, when it was good it was very very good. But even though I hear about contemporary iterations, I've never seen anything close except what I got from Kellet. I have seen old boots made from it that looked like patent leather.

Key were the ingredients that comprised the "wax" and the way it was aged. And part was the lye soap that was used to simultaneously colour and remove the surface wax prior to burnishing. And the density/fineness of the "best East India kips" didn't hurt either.
post #13788 of 19067
Why do you need lye soap?

I would guess hardware stores have wallpaper paste, but I'd guess flour would be more natural.
post #13789 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

DW, pardon me for being ignorant, but where can I find wallpaper paste, and if I could, then how do I know if it is water based and are "natural" enough to use on leather?

The last stuff I bought was from a paint shop. And it comes as a powder.
post #13790 of 19067
Hmm, I wonder what is in it?
post #13791 of 19067
How is it different than dope? smile.gif
post #13792 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Why do you need lye soap?

I would guess hardware stores have wallpaper paste, but I'd guess flour would be more natural.

Lye soap is one powerful son of a bitch soap, FWIW. If you use the stuff bare handed, in about a month long, your hands will be zombies' flesh. It effectively cleans the surface - note, the grease deposited surface - of the stuffed hide and prep that for blacking.

post #13793 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

How is it different than dope? smile.gif

Dope was a glue and not water based. The reason Horween used dope was because their leather veg retanned - meaning they were chromed prior vegged, and that also means they are nowhere burnishable. They just shorten up the process to meet demands and make large bucks. 

 

If you try burnish naked, untreated veg tanned leather with just water, you'll see. The reason for the addition of an adhesive agent in waxed calf was because the leather was finished on the rough side, and the storage of oils within may interact negatively with just plain water.

post #13794 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Why do you need lye soap?

I would guess hardware stores have wallpaper paste, but I'd guess flour would be more natural.

Dunno that just the recipe I was given. In fact, it suggested Fels Naptha in bar form.

I'm not sure anyone knows how to do it right anymore...there's always tricks and tips that a recipe, well past the heyday of currency and passed down through more than a century doesn't include.

I had a book of recipes collected from the early 19th century...called Lobscouse and Spotted Dog...I don't think they used measuring cups aboard ships of the line.
post #13795 of 19067
What's the point of using lye soap? What step in the process is that? Also, what is blacking?

Why can't pure carnauba be used? That's a wax that gets hard as fuck when it dries and is pure.
post #13796 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

What's the point of using lye soap? What step in the process is that? Also, what is blacking?

Why can't pure carnauba be used? That's a wax that gets hard as fuck when it dries and is pure.

Again the lye soap clears away the surface fats. This is done just before patterns are cut. But from what I understood, it was rubbed on with lantern soot mixed into it. Whether it was taken off in any manner at any time, is not included in the recipe I received. When I made my attempts, I skipped this part simply because my customer didn't want a shiny surface ( I did experiment with burnishing with wall paper paste, however). And A bottle of Fiebings is a lot easier to find than a sack of carbon black.

Carnuba gets brittle.
post #13797 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

What's the point of using lye soap? What step in the process is that? Also, what is blacking?

Why can't pure carnauba be used? That's a wax that gets hard as fuck when it dries and is pure.

Here's the thing, Pat. It's all related.

 

So, you have your veg tanned hide, fully stuffed to the belly, left for ages under warm attic condition. You'll expect it to eat all the grease after 12 months. No, that isn't likely going to happen as expected.

 

The surface, after getting hand stuffed, will remain only sufficiently warm for the grease to slowly penetrate and deposit inside the fibers. However, the surface is now, as you like to put it, a grease ball. Now, if you pour anything else, wax or oil based, on top of that, you get the kind of mess that you'll likely want to throw away. 

 

Lye soap is a very powerful soap that strips away even human skins, and some of that soap is the perfect solution for a dry, grease free surface. You want that kind of surface because it can be polish.

 

Blacking is the next step, which, a black pigment powder would be used for coloring (this is interesting, but I'll save that for next post). If you have a grease ball surface, it will take the powder like dusts, but that will rub on your pants and takes the next millennium to remove. Therefore, it is wise to have a grease free surface for coloring.

 

Next step is the burnishing step. We're talking about getting those hairy fibers to lay flat until the day the leather itself is ripped apart by wear, and simple water isn't enough, because water, whilst evaporation can harden the fiber, isn't adhesive enough to bind the fibers together forever. Wheat paste is perfect for this. The polymeric stuff dries hard, but flexible, and "dry" enough that it won't interfere with polishing. Horween skips this step by rubbing the dope on, because dope is glue, and it is cheap as dirt in large amount.

 

If you were to bath the hide in hot waxes, the surface is brittle, even if you get a shine, and with a few flexes here and there, if all breaks apart and reveals the hairy flesh side again, so all would be for nothing. 

 

OMG, this process is so time taking, now I know why DW wouldn't go make them anymore.

post #13798 of 19067

@DWFII, what would the condition of the storage attic for waxed calf be like back in those days? And would the area be regularly maintained? 

post #13799 of 19067

Shoe experts, I have a question for you guys.  I just bought these Santoni brand new on ebay last week, pictures shown here.  I've been looking for a pair of burgundy oxfords so they fit the bill.

 

They could be, however, almost 7 years old at this point.  Meaning they may have just been sitting around some warehouse for that time.  If they are truly from around 2008, and I think this because I believe I matched up the Santoni model name to this make, Santoni Bailey which is from around then, is that a reason for concern?  Could that impair quality or longevity of shoe? 

 

That's basically what I'm curious about.  Thanks guys.

 

 

 

post #13800 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

@DWFII
, what would the condition of the storage attic for waxed calf be like back in those days? And would the area be regularly maintained? 

I'm old but not that old. Warm and dry and out of the way, is all I know.

Again, look to the gel that linseed oil makes on the rim of a can.
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