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post #13081 of 19061
I think the thing is you want your shoes to not crack in the elements, but also want them very shiny. Generally the two are at odds with each other. If sturdy shoes that resist the elements is all you want that's pretty easy to find and do yourself.

You have said in the or that you've stripped your AE shoes of the finish and then reapplied your own finish. I have my doubts of whether you actually stripped the show of its topcoat or just the heavy polishing AE put on it before they went out the door. A leather with no topcoat would soak up all of those oils and greases like there's no tomorrow, especially with three coats of pitch blend.
post #13082 of 19061
pB,

I am one of the few makers in the world (don't ask me how many there are) who make a two piece pull-on boot out of leather that is not garment-y, raggy soft...real shoe leather, in other words.

In the19th century such boots were very popular esp. in the US. Technically, I suppose...at least in this Tradition....such boots are called "Full Wellingtons." Before and during the Am. Civil War the go-to leather for such boots (as well as brogans for the military) was what is still called waxed calf.

I have spoken how this was traditionally and historically made.

Huntsman emulates Traditional waxed calf without requiring the time or work required to truly replicate it.

In any case when began making full wellingtons seriously, I wanted to make FWs out of waxed calf. The only thing on the market was Huntsman.

To make a Full Wellington a fairly large piece of leather must be stretched--crimped or blocked--into a folded "L" shape. This is not easy. It is on the order of making a seamless full cut oxford in the nature of the problems the maker confronts. Much chasing of pipes and wrinkles is required. I use bones and Traditional rub sticks to block the fronts.

The results look something like this (with many variations)...this also is a Horween leather--their latigo.



When I blocked the Huntsman, there were spots where the "wax" on the flesh side came off--it peeled, IOW. When I called Horween about it, they sent me a small jar of dope. Like model airplane dope (that's exactly what it smelled like). They told me that this was the compound they used to "wax" the fleshside of the Huntsman and that it was a pretty straight-forward business to simply re-coat the leather with the dope.

It was NOT acrylic.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. crackup[1].gif
post #13083 of 19061
Sounds rather dopey! So they essentially sent you a bottle of glue.
post #13084 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Sounds rather dopey! So they essentially sent you a bottle of glue.

I don't know what it was...I just remember when I was fairly young watching someone make a model airplane with a balsa wood frame and the skin of the plane was tissue paper. Dope was painted on the tissue paper to make it shrink and stretch taut and to harden the surface.

The smell was overpoweringly chemical and set off all kinds of "get away" alarums in my brain.

Years later I was taken back to that time in childhood when I received the repair goop from Horween.
post #13085 of 19061
Probably apoxy
post #13086 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

I think the thing is you want your shoes to not crack in the elements, but also want them very shiny. Generally the two are at odds with each other. If sturdy shoes that resist the elements is all you want that's pretty easy to find and do yourself.

You have said in the or that you've stripped your AE shoes of the finish and then reapplied your own finish. I have my doubts of whether you actually stripped the show of its topcoat or just the heavy polishing AE put on it before they went out the door. A leather with no topcoat would soak up all of those oils and greases like there's no tomorrow, especially with three coats of pitch blend.

Pat, you got me wrong again. How about I make it in order?

_Calfskin shoes: - stripped (solvents), washed (with Lexol soap, later Ivory in semi-annual or per annual clean), then  - for winter: one coat of pure neatsfoot oil when damp, followed (when dry and absorbed) by a coat of Saphir grease applied with fingertips, let dry overnight, then work with polishes next morning; for summer care: - strip and clean only as per necessary, or else I'd use Lexol instead of the oils and greases above, then, to be real, I don't do much other than creams and conditioner. 95 % of summer care was all about cleaning with a dauber, cool water, and then brushing. 

_Shell: - greased and dressed with a wax dressing (NOT Montana Pitch Blend), then brush. For summer care, 95% is again, brushing and water cleaning. I did occasionally touch up with Glen's cream.

 

Montana Pitch Blend was used for the sole (depends on my mood), but more for boots that see camping and heavy out door usages (weekend camp trips in the forests and mounts of Washington is pleasant, why not). For those, full finger in the application process, but not too much that smothers the leather.

 

Hope that helps clear up. It's not dissonance - these products were design to work together, if we know how.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

pB,

I am one of the few makers in the world (don't ask me how many there are) who make a two piece pull-on boot out of leather that is not garment-y, raggy soft...real shoe leather, in other words.

In the19th century such boots were very popular esp. in the US. Technically, I suppose...at least in this Tradition....such boots are called "Full Wellingtons." Before and during the Am. Civil War the go-to leather for such boots (as well as brogans for the military) was what is still called waxed calf.

I have spoken how this was traditionally and historically made.

Huntsman emulates Traditional waxed calf without requiring the time or work required to truly replicate it.

In any case when began making full wellingtons seriously, I wanted to make FWs out of waxed calf. The only thing on the market was Huntsman.

To make a Full Wellington a fairly large piece of leather must be stretched--crimped or blocked--into a folded "L" shape. This is not easy. It is on the order of making a seamless full cut oxford in the nature of the problems the maker confronts. Much chasing of pipes and wrinkles is required. I use bones and Traditional rub sticks to block the fronts.

When I blocked the Huntsman, there were spots where the "wax" on the flesh side came off--it peeled, IOW. When I called Horween about it, they sent me a small jar of dope. Like model airplane dope (that's exactly what it smelled like). They told me that this was the compound they used to "wax" the fleshside of the Huntsman and that it was a pretty straight-forward business to simply re-coat the leather with the dope.

It was NOT acrylic.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. crackup[1].gif

Dope? 

post #13087 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I don't know what it was...I just remember when I was fairly young watching someone make a model airplane with a balsa wood frame and the skin of the plane was tissue paper. Dope was painted on the tissue paper to make it shrink and stretch taut and to harden the surface.

The smell was overpoweringly chemical and set off all kinds of "get away" alarums in my brain.

Years later I was taken back to that time in childhood when I received the repair goop from Horween.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Probably apoxy

 

 

Heavy chemical based "sizing", if I have the right description. 

 

I can work out how Horween skips the traditional steps here:

_Veg re-tan the leather,

_Stuff it "full bely"

_Sizing with the dope.

_Let dry

_Done and ready to ship out.

 

One can simply reflect the steps listed above with traditional waxed calf, and can see how much that saves money for Horween.

post #13088 of 19061
Travers, I personally think that's crazy. Also, like I said I'm not so sure you stripped the topcoat of your AE shoes, the wax finish maybe, but I remember I obaneufed a pair of corrected grain Chuch shoes and was able to raise a shine again. I have doubts that if the leather didn't have a topcoat or some sort of correction it wouldn't absorb that up that stuff right away and not be able to shine as you have shown.
post #13089 of 19061
I could be wrong though, but that hasn't been my experience. I still think you're doing more than you have to honestly. I've tried the grease method, it didn't stop my shoes from dying. As I've said in the past too much oil and grease isn't always a good thing. Maybe you've found that fine line, but it surely sounds like a lot more than I'm willing to do. I'd rather just keep expanding my footwear collection to where wear isn't as much of an issue.
post #13090 of 19061
Is dope the real name of the stuff? Or maybe it's a bottle heroin?
post #13091 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Is dope the real name of the stuff? Or maybe it's a bottle heroin?

I'm guessing but I think it's a nitrocellulose lacquer of some sort. The fellow who was making the airplane called it "dope." If you do a search for "dope for model aircraft" you'll get plenty of hits.so I suspect "dope" is what it's called.
post #13092 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

Pat, you got me wrong again. How about I make it in order?
...
Hope that helps clear up. It's not dissonance - these products were design to work together, if we know how.
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Travers, I personally think that's crazy.
+1. @traverscao, I agree this sounds crazy, yet I'm oddly fascinated. I would love to see a "Travers method" post, complete with pics a la one of Hanger Project's guides. It seems like you are doing a zillion more steps than I am, and quite honestly I have no idea what benefit you are getting from most of them. Whenever you get around to shoe maintenance this week, I'd love to see step-by-step pics and descriptions of your process if you have time.
post #13093 of 19061
In the art world DOPE is reffered to as a process of varnishing or laquering not the product which is no longer available...I believe DOPE was a brand.
post #13094 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahuna75 View Post

In the art world DOPE is reffered to as a process of varnishing or laquering not the product which is no longer available...I believe DOPE was a brand.

One of the search hits I mentioned referred to the exact process I talked about--tightening and lacquering tissue paper to make the skin of a model airplane.
post #13095 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Travers, I personally think that's crazy. Also, like I said I'm not so sure you stripped the topcoat of your AE shoes, the wax finish maybe, but I remember I obaneufed a pair of corrected grain Chuch shoes and was able to raise a shine again. I have doubts that if the leather didn't have a topcoat or some sort of correction it wouldn't absorb that up that stuff right away and not be able to shine as you have shown.

Regarding the Church's book leather, how did you do that?

I think the reason why some coated leather could absorb, even with the top coat, is because some how that top coat is porous enough for the act of air circulation to draw the grease deep within. I find AE's coating too sticky and the color runs everywhere, which was why I removed them. I didn't like them anyway - they may contribute greatly to wax finish cracking and conditioner's failure to absorb. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

I could be wrong though, but that hasn't been my experience. I still think you're doing more than you have to honestly. I've tried the grease method, it didn't stop my shoes from dying. As I've said in the past too much oil and grease isn't always a good thing. Maybe you've found that fine line, but it surely sounds like a lot more than I'm willing to do. I'd rather just keep expanding my footwear collection to where wear isn't as much of an issue.

Yes, the fine line. I have to take many measures to find that fine line. However, all was worth the work. 

Expanding the footwear collection is a thing I am aiming towards. Still, I may leave some to my heir(s), who knows, or maybe selling them. For that reason, they have to be well maintained.

If greasing didn't stop your shoes from dying, I wonder if I have to see the shoes on site, and probably make a long term observation on how they age, what kind of leather ... etc ... It'll be a long list of criteria to determine.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Is dope the real name of the stuff? Or maybe it's a bottle heroin?

Got point. Great sizing paste. Will make the customer(s) on high whenever they sniff their shoes, which can increase the revenue LOL!!!

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