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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 786

post #11776 of 19067
facepalm.gif
post #11777 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

[quote name="traverscao" url="/t/228153/the-official-shoe-care-thread-tutorials-photos-etc/11760#post_7518934"
However, tanned leather, historically, are fairly water resistance, don't you think? [/quote]

No...

I think you must have missed it the first time I answered this question...

Leather is tanned in a wet environment--in pits filled with water and bark or with chromium salts. It has to be hydrophillic/ porous enough to absorb the tanning agents or it's going to be rawhide forever..

I get ya alright, but the thing is, I read books about tannage in the 1900s and 1910s - 20s, where, after tanned, leather was carefully and meticulously stuffed, curried, and finished. I think most leathers nowadays, in terms of "different", lies heaviest in those parts, don't you think?

post #11778 of 19067

:crazy: 

 

books > real life

post #11779 of 19067

I suppose it depends on what one means by "waterproof". Standing in water above the ankles for several hours? Walking several blocks in heavy rain? Somewhere in between?

 

For the former, it is still hard for me to buy that the weak point will be somewhere other than the seams. If it took hours of soaking (both sides exposed, I assume) to get "waterproof" leather wet, that is probably waterproof enough for nearly all purposes. Beyond that, back to rubber.

 

For the latter, which is the most to which one might want to subject a pair of dress shoes, we are really talking about whether the water damages the shoes, not whether your feet will get wet. In heavy enough rain, or puddles, water will come in over the top of the shoe anyway. It will not matter how tight the shoe may be.

 

DW,

 

For your custom handmade work, of course, I will take your word for it. But have you used traditional methods to make shoes or boots that were to be used where they really needed to be waterproof? Standing or walking for hours in water above the ankle, for example? If the leather wets, swells, and flexes, it still seems that the seams should be the weak points. The sole itself should get floppy when wet, doesn't it? It would appear the whole method of seaming the shoes depends on a tight contact between leather pieces between the stitches. If this loosens up, due to wetting and walking, then the stitches themselves could remain dry while the seam would not longer be waterproof.


But of course, I have never tried bespoke footwear of any kind and I would never take such a pair and abuse them in water for hours on end.

post #11780 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post
 

I suppose it depends on what one means by "waterproof". Standing in water above the ankles for several hours? Walking several blocks in heavy rain? Somewhere in between?

 

For the former, it is still hard for me to buy that the weak point will be somewhere other than the seams. If it took hours of soaking (both sides exposed, I assume) to get "waterproof" leather wet, that is probably waterproof enough for nearly all purposes. Beyond that, back to rubber.

 

For the latter, which is the most to which one might want to subject a pair of dress shoes, we are really talking about whether the water damages the shoes, not whether your feet will get wet. In heavy enough rain, or puddles, water will come in over the top of the shoe anyway. It will not matter how tight the shoe may be.

 

DW,

 

For your custom handmade work, of course, I will take your word for it. But have you used traditional methods to make shoes or boots that were to be used where they really needed to be waterproof? Standing or walking for hours in water above the ankle, for example? If the leather wets, swells, and flexes, it still seems that the seams should be the weak points. The sole itself should get floppy when wet, doesn't it? It would appear the whole method of seaming the shoes depends on a tight contact between leather pieces between the stitches. If this loosens up, due to wetting and walking, then the stitches themselves could remain dry while the seam would not longer be waterproof.


But of course, I have never tried bespoke footwear of any kind and I would never take such a pair and abuse them in water for hours on end.

Water doesn not exactly damage the leather. However, leather prolonged in water without care can bring horrible results.

post #11781 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

I get ya alright, but the thing is, I read books about tannage in the 1900s and 1910s - 20s, where, after tanned, leather was carefully and meticulously stuffed, curried, and finished. I think most leathers nowadays, in terms of "different", lies heaviest in those parts, don't you think?

Well yes, but currying and finishing are not inherently part of the leather. They are additives and fundamentally no different than painting the leather, or the seams, with pine tar. No different...except in degree...to applying a polyurethane film to a scoured grain surface to create one kind of CGL.

And such leathers are only as waterproof as those additives can make them.

Some fat liquors, such as would be used in fine calf, for instance provide little or no waterproofing/resistance. they are there to nourish the leather replacing oils lost in tanning. Other additives, such as silicone provide some water proofing but the greater the waterproofing, the more occlusive these compound are.

More importantly it is the additives which are water resistant not the leather.
post #11782 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Well yes, but currying and finishing are not inherently part of the leather. They are additives and fundamentally no different than painting the leather ,or the seams, with pine tar. No different...except in degree...to applying a polyurethane film to a scoured grain surface to create one kind of CGL.

PU on leather = corrected grain. Cool...

post #11783 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

Water doesn not exactly damage the leather. However, leather prolonged in water without care can bring horrible results.
The problem is that shoes tend not to be exposed to pure water, do they? More a solution of salts and environmental polutants. Its these that cause the damage
post #11784 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyJones View Post

The problem is that shoes tend not to be exposed to pure water, do they? More a solution of salts and environmental polutants. Its these that cause the damage

I think that's very true. Sulphuric acid is a commonplace constituent of rain water in urban environments.

I might be noted that until relatively recently all shoes and esp boots were wet several times during the making operations.

With the inventions of steam cabinets that has changed some but most bespoke makers still wet or dampen shoes or their components during lasting.

So...one of the last-stage processes that a shoe experiences involves water.
post #11785 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post

PU on leather = corrected grain. Cool...

= modern patent leather.
post #11786 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyJones View Post


The problem is that shoes tend not to be exposed to pure water, do they? More a solution of salts and environmental polutants. Its these that cause the damage

True. 

 

And I clean my shoes with water after these exposures. No polish necessary afterwards, for me.

post #11787 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


= modern patent leather.

This is why modern patent leather suck ass.

 

Do you know if tanneries are stilling producing patent leather that was finished on the flesh side, with varnish, linseed oil, in the traditional way? I'd much prefer my patent footwear to be made out of that stuff. Haven't touch patent leather for ages because they're either corfams or PU. 

post #11788 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I think that's very true. Sulphuric acid is a commonplace constituent of rain water in urban environments.

I might be noted that until relatively recently all shoes and esp boots were wet several times during the making operations.

With the inventions of steam cabinets that has changed some but most bespoke makers still wet or dampen shoes or their components during lasting.

So...one of the last-stage processes that a shoe experiences involves water.

Sulphuric acid is also used in the tanning process during the pickling stage. In the right concentrations it is fine and even beneficial to leather. Leather likes to stay between 3 and 5 on the pH scale. Rain water throughout the country is very varied, but in NYC it is measured at about 4 to 4.5, which is fine for leather. The issue with water is the grime that get kicked up on the city streets and dirt and such. Physical particulate matter that gets in the creases. Water also will allow the oils and tannage to evaporate out faster during drying. That's the issue with water.
post #11789 of 19067
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post


Sulphuric acid is also used in the tanning process during the pickling stage. In the right concentrations it is fine and even beneficial to leather. Leather likes to stay between 3 and 5 on the pH scale. Rain water throughout the country is very varied, but in NYC it is measured at about 4 to 4.5, which is fine for leather. The issue with water is the grime that get kicked up on the city streets and dirt and such. Physical particulate matter that gets in the creases. Water also will allow the oils and tannage to evaporate out faster during drying. That's the issue with water.

Oil is a lot lighter than water, so I tend to believe they flush the oils out.

post #11790 of 19067

@Munky, how is Glen's polish working for you though? So far?

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