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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 778

post #11656 of 19043
Quote:
Originally Posted by traverscao View Post
 

Well, you make certain points. 

 

I love winter, though.

 

I won't argue with you there.  I wish I could find some love for winter, but I was born in the tropics and never really acclimated.

 

I'm not sure what you're referring to by wax calf, but if it's something other than CXL I'd likewise be interested in seeing an example.

post #11657 of 19043
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post
 

 

I won't argue with you there.  I wish I could find some love for winter, but I was born in the tropics and never really acclimated.

 

I'm not sure what you're referring to by wax calf, but if it's something other than CXL I'd likewise be interested in seeing an example.

A few pages back DW had some photos of his waxed calf which he made himself. It's essentially reversed side of the hide waxed to perfect smoothness, which works slightly similar to shell cordovan.

 

CXL was never waxed calf, although Horween did have a variant that was tanned on the rough side like the ones I like. CXL is pull up on grain side, definitely not the waxed calf I'm talking about.

post #11658 of 19043

@traverscao You could try googling "heavy wax calf" for a myriad of pictures. However, I will address your general question in good faith. None of these materials, e.g. heavy wax calf, shell cordovan, suede, russian reindeer, leather, goatskin are waterproof by themselves.

 

As you seem to understand, you (and/or a factory) can treat these materials with dubbin, greases, sprays, fats, chemicals, etc. to add water resistance to varying degrees of success. I believe untreated shell cordovan is more water resistant to water than plain untreated calf, but if subjected to extreme conditions, just about any shoe or boot made from these materials will be somewhat penetrable to water. That also goes for Zug and treated shell cordovan, as well as other materials deemed magical rain talismans by forum members. 

 

Waxed calf is a solid material for foul-weather-capable leather shodding. I have had this type of boot. If treated with dubbin or the equivalent, they will perfom admirably.  Honestly though, rubber or Gore-Tex boots/shoes will be much more effective keeping feet dry and probably more reasonably priced as well. This is just my two cents. Good luck in your search. 

post #11659 of 19043
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothie1 View Post
 

@traverscao You could try googling "heavy wax calf" for a myriad of pictures. However, I will address your general question in good faith. None of these materials, e.g. heavy wax calf, shell cordovan, suede, russian reindeer, leather, goatskin are waterproof by themselves.

 

As you seem to understand, you (and/or a factory) can treat these materials with dubbin, greases, sprays, fats, chemicals, etc. to add water resistance to varying degrees of success. I believe untreated shell cordovan is more water resistant to water than plain untreated calf, but if subjected to extreme conditions, just about any shoe or boot made from these materials will be somewhat penetrable to water. That also goes for Zug and treated shell cordovan, as well as other materials deemed magical rain talismans by forum members. 

 

Waxed calf is a solid material for foul-weather-capable leather shodding. I have had this type of boot. If treated with dubbin or the equivalent, they will perfom admirably.  Honestly though, rubber or Gore-Tex boots/shoes will be much more effective keeping feet dry and probably more reasonably priced as well. This is just my two cents. Good luck in your search. 

One reason we wear leather is because they are way more comfortable than any other materials. Yes, rubbers and synthetic compounds can totally shed water, but think again - stinky feet at the end of the day.

 

Shell can be very much water resistant. It's a membrane stuffed and curried with lots and lots of grease and waxes. But the phobia everybody caught was the bump. So here's the problem. It was heavily impregnated with tallows and beeswax, then curried with oils, then glazed to mirror shine,which sounds perfect, although, the waxes and tallows must be buffed up really long so that it can rise and become effective. Oils will evaporate over time, carry moisture away with it, therefore, when shell comes in contact with water spots, it sucks moisture in, and henceforth could not escape due to thick wax barrier. As we brush, the moisture of the water spots escape, but the bump may still remain, because tallows and waxes are not THAT flexible without the addition of a lubricant, like oil. This is why we need to get over the paste wax epidemic and start to look into shell more specifically. Alden only recommend paste wax because they refinished shell leather with some crazy and stupid coating only they know what it was made of.

 

Even when the deer bone is highly effective in clearing bumps, problem is, it only push the bumps down. As the moisture from the rain withdraw, shells that lacks of oils will begin to deteriorate. This is when little oils from some shoe cream or conditioner will play. 

 

In this statement, I am not advocating creams and oils everyday for shell, but we have to know that shell still needs some oils, which translate into a routine of infrequent cream applications. Infrequent does not mean none at all, and to one point it means stable feeding schedule of once in awhile. 

 

Waxed calf was traditionally a military material. I'd imagine with a grease coating they can even resist snow and salt. A pair of laced up boots made of 4 - 5 oz waxed calf would make a great foul weather footwear in comparison to anything. Waxed calf was tanned to hold just as much oils and greases and waxes as shell cordovan. Matter of fact, we should have called shell "Waxed horse butt". 

 

It will sound as crazy as you can call me insane, but I treated shell cordovan with grease and wax, and while they exhibit a very natural high shine, they also repel water very efficiently.

 

Untreated calfskins are only water repellant if the leather is unflexed. Shell, unlike smooth calf, will allow oils and greases to further driven to the surface when being flexed, thus allow high water resistance.

post #11660 of 19043

i own two pairs of shoes in wax calf...and one in roughout suede.

 

both better than shell...but certainly not impenetrable.

 

shell is terrible in the rain though...this is a known fact...to think otherwise is being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn.

 

and deer bones are useless unless you like ruining your shoes with deep scratches.

 

i think dainite is ok in the snow and rain. i do not like it on wet surfaces like cobblestone streets or marble floors...it can be very very slippery.

 

nothing is good on solid ice in the menswear shoe arsenal. 

 

i like commando for snow...but i know some people that swear by ridgeway. 

post #11661 of 19043
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCK1 View Post
 

i own two pairs of shoes in wax calf...and one in roughout suede.

 

both better than shell...but certainly not impenetrable.

 

shell is terrible in the rain though...this is a known fact...to think otherwise is being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn.

 

and deer bones are useless unless you like ruining your shoes with deep scratches.

 

i think dainite is ok in the snow and rain. i do not like it on wet surfaces like cobblestone streets or marble floors...it can be very very slippery.

 

nothing is good on solid ice in the menswear shoe arsenal. 

 

i like commando for snow...but i know some people that swear by ridgeway. 

Hundreds of years, tanners had used deer bones to make waxed calves, and many had experience success with it in treating with shells, too, and here you are, saying that it is stubborn to stick to what had worked and are still working... Oh boy...

 

Do you even know how to use a deer bone? I have to ask, because I have a lot of rough spots and I don't have a single scratch on my shell boots.

 

For solid ice, add something like hobnail.

post #11662 of 19043

Let me re-iterate...deer bones are useless. they are not necessary. they will do more harm than good.

 

shell is very easy to maintain.

 

1. use shoe trees.

2. brush after wear.

 

do this and they will last you at least two decades...oh and don't wear them repeatedly in the rain because shell sucks in the rain.

post #11663 of 19043
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCK1 View Post


@David Copeland II

I've said this a billion times too...

Deer bones don't do anything except scratch the hell out of your shoes.

That was truly funny.


I still have a deer bone. The first time I used it, I scratched my shell boot. There is one member of my household who loves the deer bone.

post #11664 of 19043

deer bone = iGent talisman of sorts

 

You can use the back of a spoon, or any other smooth, round, and dense material.  Adding a little lubricant or cream could be useful, if you "need" the oils you'll say are transferred from the bone.  

 

The whole bone thing is a little ridiculous IMO. I'll admit I have tried it (and still own one). Does a bone help smooth out rolls and scratches, yes. Do other items work just as well as bone, yes.  Does the sale of deer bone help sales in the shoe care industry where sales have been falling generally, yes. 

 

Cheers. 

post #11665 of 19043
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCK1 View Post

Let me re-iterate...deer bones are useless. they are not necessary. they will do more harm than good.

I don't know how broad your interpretation of "deer bones" is, but I personally cannot distinguish between a natural (untreated) deer bone and a natural cow bone.

That said, bones have been used in various leather Trades time-out-of mind. Bookmakers used bones. Shoe and bootmakers used bones. Long before and long after spoons were invented. In both Trades, bones are still used and valued as among the most prized tools available...spoons, not so much. There really is no substitute.

I use bones extensively both for chasing wrinkles and polishing outsole leather and heel stacks.

A properly polished bone (and proper technique), can burnish leather...esp. vegetable tanned leather...to a high shine--even the flesh (rough) side--while compacting the fibers, smoothing out pits and other irregularities, and generally leveling the surface. There really is no substitute.

Properly polished, a bone will never scratch the leather. Anyone who has scratched leather with a bone has not polished it properly or is not using it properly.

--
Edited by DWFII - 11/18/14 at 4:57pm
post #11666 of 19043
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCK1 View Post
 

Let me re-iterate...deer bones are useless. they are not necessary. they will do more harm than good.

 

shell is very easy to maintain.

 

1. use shoe trees.

2. brush after wear.

 

do this and they will last you at least two decades...oh and don't wear them repeatedly in the rain because shell sucks in the rain.

No leather could stand repeated rain, but hell, with my eyes, for the last two years and six months, both of my shell boots had repeatedly and frequently get soaked in rain, walked the hell out of, getting all kinds of hell poured on them, and still, they survived. And I don't know in what way you used the bone, but I have never had a scratch or a nick on my shell caused by the bone. The bone even helped smooth out and completely eliminate all scuffs and nicks. Brushing alone may have helped in dusting and reactivating oils, but I've never seen a scuff completely removed by brushing. Please don't tell me to use wax, because I used wax on my shell once and totally regret it - the shine looks so artificial, it looks like the shoe was casted out of wax. With wax on, it scuffs even way easier.

 

You better know that I read this thread since 2011, and other shell related threads AND articles since 2008. I packed myself with sufficient knowledge before I enter the shell game.

 

And the amount of money I spent on shoe trees should make you feel awful - thousands of dollars. I always tree leather footwears, just as much as reshape all of my natural material garments.

 

I won't ask you to, but I think many should ditch the theory of shell sucks in rain. Cosmetic wise, shell will not look good in rain, and so is calfskin. However, in survivability, I'd go for shell for rainy days.

post #11667 of 19043
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick_b View Post


That was truly funny.


I still have a deer bone. The first time I used it, I scratched my shell boot. There is one member of my household who loves the deer bone.

patrick, I hate being interpret as mr. copeland. 

 

Other than that, bones can and will scratch if we are not careful. And many times in care session people will experience mis-care. 

post #11668 of 19043
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothie1 View Post
 

deer bone = iGent talisman of sorts

 

You can use the back of a spoon, or any other smooth, round, and dense material.  Adding a little lubricant or cream could be useful, if you "need" the oils you'll say are transferred from the bone.  

 

The whole bone thing is a little ridiculous IMO. I'll admit I have tried it (and still own one). Does a bone help smooth out rolls and scratches, yes. Do other items work just as well as bone, yes.  Does the sale of deer bone help sales in the shoe care industry where sales have been falling generally, yes. 

 

Cheers. 

I tried a spoon and it doesn't work. Bones were used since before shoe polish exist, and was renowned several times already. Abbeyhorn may have charged too much, but money trades quality, and I need no evidence to proof further. 

post #11669 of 19043
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I don't know how broad your interpretation of "deer bones" is, but I personally cannot distinguish between a natural (untreated) deer bone and a natural cow bone.

That said, bones have been used in various leather Trades time-out-of mind. Bookmakers used bones. Shoe and bootmakers used bones. Long before and long after spoons were invented. In both Trades, bones are still used and valued as among the most prized tools available. There really is no substitute.

I use bones extensively both for chasing wrinkles and polishing outsole leather and heel stacks.

A properly polished bone (and proper technique), can burnish leather...esp. vegetable tanned leather...to a high shine--even the flesh (rough) side--while compacting the fibers, smoothing out pits and other irregularities, and generally leveling the surface. There really is no substitute.

Properly polished, a bone will never scratch the leather. Anyone who has scratched leather with a bone has not polished it properly or is not using it properly.

--

:cheers: 

 

I am clumsy and dumb, and I can use a bone without a scratch on my shell. I even smoothed out the edges on AE shoes with the deer bone from Abbeyhorn.

 

Doggone my life, DW.

post #11670 of 19043
Here is a photo of a boot in process.The waist has been pegged and the heel seat area deliberately roughed up in preparation to mount the heel stack.

The waist has been scraped with broken glass and sanded. It was then burnished with the bone sitting on the bench to the right. Nothing was used to obtain the shine in the waist except water and the bone...and work. No wax...nothing. Later it will be dyed and sanded and burnished again.

(as always, click for a closer look)

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