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post #11371 of 19038

Perhaps the 'non oily', refers to the 'feel' of the product. As in 'it doesn't feel oily to me'. Even if the line about oils is badly written, the company are prepared to say that Reno doesn't contain turps. I don't think that the clumsy line negates the point about turps. 

post #11372 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post

Perhaps the 'non oily', refers to the 'feel' of the product. As in 'it doesn't feel oily to me'. Even if the line about oils is badly written, the company are prepared to say that Reno doesn't contain turps. I don't think that the clumsy line negates the point about turps. 

I agree 100%.

It just makes me wonder that's all. It awakens my native skepticism and makes me want a logical, rational answer.

And frankly, it's a little bit of a puzzle that a company with world-wide exposure and access to to-flight PR people can't find someone to write clearer copy. If...as has been proposed...they don't want to say anything that might be misinterpreted, seems like they missed the boat there...big time.



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Edited by DWFII - 10/29/14 at 11:10am
post #11373 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Well, here's a question for Glenjay...or anyone else who can offer insight: How do you make a product "non-oily" when one of the primary ingredients is mink oil? Or Lanolin? Or jojoba oil?

Colour me curious.

The feeling of something being more oily or less oily has to do with the composition of the acids (usually fatty acids) that make up that oil. For example: coconut oil is high in Lauric acid, while mink oil is high in Palmitoleic acid.

Lanolin is actually more of a wax than an oil by composition, as is jojoba, and mineral oil does not contain fatty acids but does contain acids. Actually none of these three “oils” have triglycerides (there is no glycerine backbone in the chemical makup).
post #11374 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by glenjay View Post

The feeling of something being more oily or less oily has to do with the composition of the acids (usually fatty acids) that make up that oil. For example: coconut oil is high in Lauric acid, while mink oil is high in Palmitoleic acid.

Lanolin is actually more of a wax than an oil by composition, as is jojoba, and mineral oil does not contain fatty acids but does contain acids. Actually none of these three “oils” have triglycerides (there is no glycerine backbone in the chemical makup).

Thanks Glen. But I'm not clear what the upshot of having Lauric acid versus Palmitoleic acid, is. Which would feel oilier?

And if an oil...any of these oils...is emulsified in water, will it lose its oily character?

I guess to cut to the chase, how can a compound be "non oily" if it contains oil as one of the main...first listed, maybe among the only... ingredients?

Point of order: I am not speculating or assuming as so many here are inclined to do--I am asking, simply because I don't know. "I'm a shoemaker, Jim, not a chemist."
post #11375 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Thanks Glen. But I'm not clear what the upshot of having Lauric acid versus Palmitoleic acid, is. Which would feel oilier?

And if an oil...any of these oils...is emulsified in water, will it lose its oily character?

I guess to cut to the chase, how can a compound be "non oily" if it contains oil as one of the main...first listed, maybe among the only... ingredients?

Point of order: I am not speculating or assuming as so many here are inclined to do--I am asking, simply because I don't know. "I'm a shoemaker, Jim, not a chemist."

 

I would agree with the prev. commenters that "oily" in manufacturer ad copy is a matter of feel rather than composition (cf. body lotions, which always contain oils/fats, but some are marketed as non-oily).

 

the 'oily' feel of a product (once applied) typically comes from one of two things:

(1) having larger oil/fat molecules (entirely or in some percentage) that don't entirely sink into whatever surface they are meant for (leather for shoe care products, human skin for lotions) when applied in reasonable amounts,

(2) having oil/fat molecules that are highly viscous (i.e. high attractive forces between the molecules).

 

For lotions and shoe care products the notion that corresponds to 'oiliness' used in ad copy is mostly (1) above, but '(2)' tends to be a factor as well in determining whether the substance feels oily.


Edited by sleepyinsanfran - 10/29/14 at 1:34pm
post #11376 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Thanks Glen. But I'm not clear what the upshot of having Lauric acid versus Palmitoleic acid, is. Which would feel oilier?

And if an oil...any of these oils...is emulsified in water, will it lose its oily character?

I guess to cut to the chase, how can a compound be "non oily" if it contains oil as one of the main...first listed, maybe among the only... ingredients?

Point of order: I am not speculating or assuming as so many here are inclined to do--I am asking, simply because I don't know. "I'm a shoemaker, Jim, not a chemist."

I think it would be more accurate to state that it is "non greasy" than "non oily" (but it is a matter of semantics to some degree) because lanolin and jojoba are more of a wax composition than an oil, and the molecular chain length and composition of the Palmitoleic acid in mink oil gives it a less greasy feel (but not by much) compared to some other oils.

To know which oils are less or more greasy you would need to know the acid composition (I believe the alcohols also play a role in the oil to wax range) of the oil and how it relates to the acid composition of a comparative oil.

My chemistry knowledge is not strong enough to do a comparative analysis of the various oils. Perhaps Sleepy could expound on this for us.

As far as emulsified oils: the composition would feel less oily, but it does not change the molecular makeup of the oil like hydrogenation does.
post #11377 of 19038
Having just heard a presentation at the HCC on chemistry for shoemakers, it is my impression that the definition of 'oil' vs. 'wax' is not entirely clear, in that they are both comprised of hydrocarbon chains; 'wax' is comprised of longer chains and has a higher melting point, hence it is typically solid at room temperature,but I'm not sure there is a specific definition delineating the distinction.

DW: you might want to reach out to the author of the presentation, as he was a bench chemist in a previous life. It was an interesting presentation.
post #11378 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


And if an oil...any of these oils...is emulsified in water, will it lose its oily character?

 

Mayonnaise.

 

Ex-chef de cuisine talking here.  But if the water would ever evaporate, the oil would remain behind.  Not sure if it is absorbed or not. Key emulsifier is Lecithin (found in egg yolks and mustard, more industrially from soy). You could go to a pastry supplier and find some pure lecithin, you can whip 10x weight of water into oil that way.  

post #11379 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDeKelver View Post

Mayonnaise.

Ex-chef de cuisine talking here.  But if the water would ever evaporate, the oil would remain behind.  Not sure if it is absorbed or not. Key emulsifier is Lecithin (found in egg yolks and mustard, more industrially from soy). You could go to a pastry supplier and find some pure lecithin, you can whip 10x weight of water into oil that way.  

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of too. Real mayo is oily on the skin....and delicious. Esp. when licked off!

Reno reminds me of mayonnaise a little bit...but it's terrible on asparagus. DAMHIKT.

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post #11380 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

Having just heard a presentation at the HCC on chemistry for shoemakers, it is my impression that the definition of 'oil' vs. 'wax' is not entirely clear, in that they are both comprised of hydrocarbon chains; 'wax' is comprised of longer chains and has a higher melting point, hence it is typically solid at room temperature,but I'm not sure there is a specific definition delineating the distinction.

DW: you might want to reach out to the author of the presentation, as he was a bench chemist in a previous life. It was an interesting presentation.

sf,

Yeah, I wish I had been there. Maybe, if the elder gods smile down on us, it will be a video on the website. I have student, an extremely talented and good student....so any "reaching out" will have to wait.

That said, I knew that oils and waxes are kind of related (?). Some dictionaries define lanolin as a grease derived from sheep wool. My wife is a spinner so I knew that. I also knew from previous inquiries that lanolin is considered a wax (a 'greasy" wax) by some people, which is secreted from sebaceous glands.
post #11381 of 19038
Hello!! I'm lasa and i'm from indonesia. So i really interested with leather shoes after i see a couple leather shoes from shop in instagram. I have read threads fro sf and read many shoe care instructions and tips. And i plan to buy my first pair leather shoes (yeeey!) But i see on this forum and from other tips and instruction they all use saphire products, and in my country its difficult to find them (or you can tell me where to buy it if you know it biggrin.gif) what i often see is kiwi products, mink oil etc. Can the gurus tell me step by step what to do with new pair of shoes and the treatment with using kiwi products? Maybe other have experience using kiwi products? For change renovator or polishing cream?
thank you very much!!! biggrin.gif
sorry for any bad grammar frown.gif (oops)
post #11382 of 19038
I think you've all gone nuts.....
post #11383 of 19038
Nuts? How well does nuts oil work for shoe care compare to jojoba oil? Or coconut oil?
post #11384 of 19038
I have a serious question. How many people on here have actually had issues with their shoe uppers cracking? I feel like so many people on here obsess over a potential non-issue, and it is a fear more than anything. Me on the other hand, I have intimate experience with shoe leather failing so I feel a bit justified in my obsessiveness.
post #11385 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

I have a serious question. How many people on here have actually had issues with their shoe uppers cracking? I feel like so many people on here obsess over a potential non-issue, and it is a fear more than anything. Me on the other hand, I have intimate experience with shoe leather failing so I feel a bit justified in my obsessiveness.

My 10 year+ Church's are starting to develop minor surface cracks. The upper on my Loake developed a huge crack after maybe 5 years and I had to throw them away. But that was long ago before I knew anything about shoe care and I only used regular black Kiwi wax to polish them
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