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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 757

post #11341 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAJJLLPP View Post


You must also consider that the sweat from your foot is largely in a vapourous state. When water is a vapour it will pass through the pores of the leather much more easily. So the submerging a cork innersole comparison is not very relevant. Just think of gore-tex, it is tested by submerging it in water for 24 hours, and it does not leak, yet the tiny pores in gore-tex allow water vapour to pass through quite easily. Just my 2¢.

In a general sense yes. But consider this....Your feet contain about 250,000 sweat glands, which can produce as much as 1 cup of moisture a day. Not everybody but, in some cases. I go back to my original point cream polish is better for your shoe and foot. That's all I'm saying.
post #11342 of 19038
Let's just agree that cream polish is better for shoes in the long haul as it allows moisture to vaporize.

As for sole options, it's still up to debate. Even for hand welted shoes the outsole is glued onto the mid/insole before sewing the outside seam. And those glue are likely to be neoprene or petroleum based, thus prevents water to pass through, no?
post #11343 of 19038
BTW I still like to make my dress shoes toe cap shiny as fuck. But rest of the shoes I settle with just cream.
post #11344 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

BTW I still like to make my dress shoes toe cap shiny as fuck. But rest of the shoes I settle with just cream.
Amen brother!
post #11345 of 19038

Benhour,

Thank you very much for finding out the information about Renovator and turpentine. I appreciate it.  Munky.


Edited by Munky - 10/28/14 at 3:29am
post #11346 of 19038
silly question but are these considered "pre-topied"? the stitching on the sole is still visible so I'm not sure. even if I wanted to have something put over them would a cobbler be able to grind down the rubber?

post #11347 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Let's just agree that cream polish is better for shoes in the long haul as it allows moisture to vaporize.

As for sole options, it's still up to debate. Even for hand welted shoes the outsole is glued onto the mid/insole before sewing the outside seam. And those glue are likely to be neoprene or petroleum based, thus prevents water to pass through, no?

That's not necessarily true. There was a time, you know, when cements did not exist. Shoemakers simply tacked the outsole in place prior to stitching or used pastes. Many still use paste, in one part of the process or another. Some use pastes almost exclusively. And many use cements with a great deal of trepidation and caution.

For instance, if I am going to use cement to mount an outsole, the only place I use it is on the welt. I don't paint the whole underside of the insole with cement. Nor do I use cork and cement compounds.

But aside from that, the whole point is that you cannot have it both ways...not without abandoning logic and science altogether...either rubber and neoprene are occlusive or they are not. If they are occlusive as a cements, they are occlusive as an outsole or an insole.

And adding layer after layer of occlusive material to any part of the shoe doesn't make it less occlusive nor does it make it "best practices." Compounding evil doesn't make it good.

As for creams and waxes, both are occlusive to some degree. Creams do have waxes in them. The fact that those waxes are mixed in with solvents and conditioners (many of which are also petroleum based) doesn't mean that they're not there. Even natural oils...in the absence of any wax...can suffocate the leather.

Are paste waxes more occlusive than creams? Perhaps--it depends on how they are used. A shoe that is given a high gloss shine all over--the way some makers do---is already in trouble. Bulling just the toe and counter is probably not significantly occlusive. But heavy applications...or even too frequent applications...of creams also clog (occlude) the pores of the leather. And cleaning, while it removes dirt and grit, doesn't help much if you turn around and slather cream right back on the shoe.

This is what many folks like pB have been saying here in this thread---less is more. Some even go so far as to recommend little or no product....and a lot of brushing.

The argument cannot be made for one product or application without it applying to all. The argument that waxes will suffocate leather...will suffocate the shoe...is a valid argument. And one that applies equally to rubber outsoles, Topy, neoprene insoles, and rubber and neoprene cement. It's only a matter of degree.

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Edited by DWFII - 10/28/14 at 5:42am
post #11348 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by PattyC View Post

silly question but are these considered "pre-topied"? the stitching on the sole is still visible so I'm not sure. even if I wanted to have something put over them would a cobbler be able to grind down the rubber?

Hard to tell with a photo. The way they are painted and finished the whole outsole looks like rubber (it may not be). But generally speaking, it is not advisable to sew "Topy" because if it is Topy, then to replace it, the stitching will have to be ground down, thus weakening the outsole...which, in turn, obviates the whole rational (such as it is) for Topy, in the first place.
post #11349 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post

Benhour,
Thank you very much for finding out the information about Renovator and turpentine. I appreciate it.  Munky.

I don't know whether there is turpentine in Avel products or not, but it is worth noting that unless some of the response that Benhour got, was redacted, Avel did not say there was no turpentine in their products...they said "you won't have any problem."

There's a big difference between an unequivocal denial and what could arguably be called "weasel words" or political speak....bland reassurances are meant to leave you happy (if not entirely certain) and evade a real answer..

Bottom line is that if you have an allergy and have no reaction when using the product then it doesn't matter one way or the other ...right? Right?! devil.gif

"Those who refuse skepticism will inevitably embrace cynicism."

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Edited by DWFII - 10/28/14 at 6:33am
post #11350 of 19038
I thought the only difference between creams and waxes was the presence of more solvent to make the wax, well, creamy. Glenjay would probably know better though.
post #11351 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I don't know whether there is turpentine in Avel products or not, but it is worth noting that unless some of the response that Benhour got, was redacted, Avel did not say there was no turpentine in their products...they said "you won't have any problem."

DWFII i asked specifically for the Renovateur(mentioning that i had an allergies from turpentine when i used their waxes and paste polish)  not for all of their products(at their creams and waxes they say it on the label that these are containing  turpentine!!)

 

btw the only way i could judge myself if there is or not , turpentine in it , is by smelling it and renovateur isnt smelling turpentine at all!! but you can never be 100% sure on anything

post #11352 of 19038
Renovateur doesn't contain turpentine. It is water based. The polishes do contain turpentine.
post #11353 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhour View Post

DWFII i asked specifically for the Renovateur(mentioning that i had an allergies from turpentine when i used their waxes and paste polish)  not for all of their products(at their creams and waxes they say it on the label that these are containing  turpentine!!)

btw the only way i could judge myself if there is or not , turpentine in it , is by smelling it and renovateur isnt smelling turpentine at all!! but you can never be 100% sure on anything

Again, I don't know what is in most of these products...from any company. Not for certain.

So, I'm not really doubting or saying that Reno does have turp in it. All I'm saying is that if you ask a simple question...requiring a simple "yes" or "no"...and they give you an answer that is not straight-forward and unequivocal, be skeptical.
post #11354 of 19038

I noted the the ambiguous response from Avel - ("you won't have a problem [with reno]). - I think we probably all did, DW. I think we are probably all capable of being skeptical, too. 

 

As my mother used to remind me, I am not as daft as I look!

 

I suspect Avil's less that straightforward response was down to a number of things, including professional secrets, covering their backs in case of litigation and so on. I also imagine that their response was a reasonable one given that Benhour asked a direct question about a particular product. 

 

I suspect that Avil's timidity about giving a very direct answer mayrelate to the conditions in which the product is made. There may be traces of turps in the factory. It's a bit like the phrase used on many food packets: 'may contain nuts'.

post #11355 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post

I noted the the ambiguous response from Avel - ("you won't have a problem [with reno]). - I think we probably all did, DW. I think we are probably all capable of being skeptical, too. 

As my mother used to remind me, I am not as daft as I look!

I suspect Avil's less that straightforward response was down to a number of things, including professional secrets, covering their backs in case of litigation and so on. I also imagine that their response was a reasonable one given that Benhour asked a direct question about a particular product. 

I suspect that Avil's timidity about giving a very direct answer mayrelate to the conditions in which the product is made. There may be traces of turps in the factory. It's a bit like the phrase used on many food packets: 'may contain nuts'.

Munky,

Nothing personal or specific to you in my response....just riffing off yours and Benhour's remarks. Sorry if that came off awkwardly.

That said, many many people on this forum are almost outraged when I suggest that they take manufacturer's claims and hype with a grain of salt. All without a shred of experience or objective knowledge to support or refute the claims. That's not skepticism by anyone's definition, in my book. It's dern sure not healthy skepticism.

The only people who know for certain what is in Reno, for instance, are the chemists who make it--they are the only ones with direct experience. All the rest of us are relying on word of mouth, urban legend, speculation and hearsay.

That's of the problem, IMO--there's too much unsupported speculation going on and not enough direct, straight-from-the-bench, objectivity.

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