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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 704

post #10546 of 19040

DFWII

 

Thanks. I'm still curious why one can't reasonably infer the location of the gemming? So sorry for being daft here. I'm looking at this diagram:

 


I hope this is accurate. When one resoles, one cuts the outside stitching and removes and restitches a sole? But if the gemming comes loose, isn't the inside stitch sufficient to hold the materials together such that, given the stitch, it is clear where the rib goes?

post #10547 of 19040
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post

DFWII

Thanks. I'm still curious why one can't reasonably infer the location of the gemming? So sorry for being daft here. I'm looking at this diagram:

I hope this is accurate. When one resoles, one cuts the outside stitching and removes and restitches a sole? But if the gemming comes loose, isn't the inside stitch sufficient to hold the materials together such that, given the stitch, it is clear where the rib goes?

I forgive you for being daft...crackup[1].gif

Your illustration of the GY welting technique is either of the old, original, seldom-used-in-contemporary-manufacturing, variation or of a HW construction. (and that's not out of the question as many people confuse GY welted construction with all welted construction.

In any case, there is no "inside stitching" when gemming is being used. Not in the sense I suspect you mean. Yes, there is an inseam but that only secures the upper to the gemming, it does not secure the gemming to the insole. In modern GY, the gemming is cemented in place. Nothing else secures it.

Let's see if I can make this a bit clearer...In your illustration, the "holdfast" is an integral extension/piece of the leather insole. It is leather...the same leather. Again, it could very well have been created by an older iteration of the GY technique. But it is also roughly analogous to a HW insole. In modern GY there is no true holdfast. The gemming subs as a holdfast but unlike a real holdfast (at least as Traditional shoemakers would define it) it is not part of the insole. Without the cement it floats...entirely separate from the insole. It's not even made of the same material as the insole. It's linen or canvas.

If the cement fails and the gemming "lifts away"...floats...and a cobbler comes in later, after the shoe has been worn and the insole and gemming subjected to stress, lateral compression, and distortion...how does anyone reposition it from its "float" position back to where it started? Even if the shoe came with specs saying that the inside edge of a one inch wide strip of ribbing/gemming should be placed one cm from the edge of the insole, you can't accurately see where the edge of the insole is...simply because the gemming and the welt and the upper cover it.

You can guess, you can estimate. But that's not the same as an accurate measurement. Real craftsmen...whether they be working in wood, or meta,l or glass, or leather don't rely on guesses when a measurement is appropriate.

"Measure twice, cut once."

--
Edited by DWFII - 8/31/14 at 8:12am
post #10548 of 19040

Hello mjvoce, those are beautiful shoes!  I wonder if you we asking about products for cleaning your shoes? You could find almost exact matches for both cream and wax, from Saphir or similar. I wonder, though, if a coloured cream/wax might not be such a good idea for the brown, burnished, shoes. Saphir also make 'neutral' products in their cream/wax. Whatever you decide to use, use only the smallest amount! And don't use them very often. Brushing in between wears is, for the most of the time, all the shoes need. 

 

This topic has been visited many times on this thread. Even though you have scrolled through many pages, it might be worth your scrolling a bit more!

post #10549 of 19040
I think I understand now and I can see I was a bit daft even with that last diagram.

If the gemming comes undone then even an inside stitch of welt, upper and ribbing will not tell you with accuracy where the gemming was attached. Then the shap of The shoe can change if it is not attached within reasonable accuracy to its previous location. Which is why some members in an earlier thread spoke of a tighter fit on resoling. At least it could explain their feeling the shoe to be tighter.

Ugh. I guess it now comes down to the probability I spoke of in an earlier post, how likely the gemming will detach within the lifetime of well cared for shoes, rotating, avoiding foul weather, etc.
post #10550 of 19040

DWF and NickV, could you lay down your boxing gloves, please?  You are both experts - in different ways - and you both offer very useful information and advice. Name calling is not particularly edifying and it diverts attention from the main business of the thread. Yours, as ever, Munky. 

post #10551 of 19040
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post

DWF and NickV, could you lay down your boxing gloves, please?  You are both experts - in different ways - and you both offer very useful information and advice. Name calling is not particularly edifying and it diverts attention from the main business of the thread. Yours, as ever, Munky. 

Munky...no offense--I just don't know how else to say this: I don't recall calling Nick any names. I didn't call him a liar. I didn't call him paranoid. I didn't call him pathetic. I didn't call him a phony.

And I honestly, don't think it's helpful to jump in, somewhat after the fact and when the fireworks have all but died down, and stir things back up again. I know you're trying to be fair and judicious but I don't think it helps.

That said, if you can show me where I have initiated a conflict with Nick...not just responded to name calling and other instigations...I promise to give it an open-minded consideration.
post #10552 of 19040

Re: handstitching the sole to the welt. I think DW has said that, although that handstitching is his routine approach for new shoes, he will machine stitch the soles for clients who are so price conscious that the subtantial savings is worth it to them. I think he has said that most people prepared to pay for bespoke shoes want the full handmade experience, but he does not insist on it. If DW is willing to do that, then he cannot consider the difference between hand and machine stitching for this task to be significant. If he thought it mattered, then machine stiching would not be an option.

 

Cork removal. The worker in the video is also working at top speed, presumably as expected at the factory. It looked like he could well dislodge gemming the way he was doing it. But a little more care would not have brought the metal so violently near the gemming. I supect this could be avoided working more slowly, which costs money. In that video did they replace the gemming on the shoes they showed when they were rewelting? It went by too quickly for me to be sure.

 

Position of the gemming- I repeat that I have never seen this done in person, let alone done it myself. But from videos it seems that there must be the sort of machine control that DW posits. The process takes a couple of seconds and looks very uniform. Presumably there is some standard setting. Perhaps it varies with the design of the shoe, but is standard once you have specified that. But it is sounding like this magnitude of the error possible, even without the original last, is limited. There is not all that much space, there may be some marks on the insole to guide the repairer, the upper has a contour to which the gemming must conform and it is unclear how much difference it would make if one were off a bit.

 

I suspect this is DW speaking as a bespoke maker. For him, lover of tradition, all shoes built on custom lasts created for one specific set of feet, thick stout insole to form an anchor for the structure of the shoe, past history of repairing heavily abused GYW cowboy boots, the position of the inseam is a critical part of the fit and stability of the shoe. Why use a method that permits even a small failure when he does not have too? Why do it when it moves him further from traditional methods?

 

For a lover of shoes and tradition, his arguments makes perfect sense.

 

For most men, who know little and care less about how the shoes are made or repaired, such distinctions are meaningless. They try to buy shoes that fit reasonably well. They expect the fit to change some while wearing them, hopefully for the better. They expect the fit to change when resoled. They would rather not have a hassle about getting the resole done. Some use local cobblers, some mail away cobblers, some just deal with the factory. I suspect many do what is most convenient. It may well be easier to mail the shoes off than to find a local cobbler, get there on a work day or use up weekend time, and go back to pick them up.

 

Nick,

 

How often have you encountered shoes that your shop could not repair, but the factory could?

 

Does factory recrafting always mean rewelting? If a shoe just needed new soles would they do the more extensive work? If so, that might explain why they will limit the number of times they will recraft. This would seem like an excellent reason NOT to routinely send shoes to the factory when only a resole was required.

 

LS7,

 

I was puzzled by your comments about Vass. Another maker whose prices are outside my range, but I did not understand why these quality control issues would make you eliminate him from oxfords, but still ok for derbys.

post #10553 of 19040
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Bick4 made by Bickmore, is safe...and good.

 

Thank you for the prompt reply. I was actually leaning towards Bick4. Does Bick4 work as a mild cleaner as well as a conditioner? 

 

Could I ask what your opinion is on Saphir Renovateur

post #10554 of 19040
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

No, they are stitched on with very reliable Landis machines. It's a lock stitch.
Custom work is for example, changing a 270 GY welt to a 360 storm, adding a mid-sole, changing the welt color/finish, converting to Dainite, Itshide Commando it goes on and on.....

Thx. Looking back at the photo that you posted of the WESTON insole is it technically possible for your custom work to convert that from gemmed/GY to HW?

DWF, was your # for handsewn?
post #10555 of 19040
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post

I think I understand now and I can see I was a bit daft even with that last diagram.

If the gemming comes undone then even an inside stitch of welt, upper and ribbing will not tell you with accuracy where the gemming was attached. Then the shap of The shoe can change if it is not attached within reasonable accuracy to its previous location. Which is why some members in an earlier thread spoke of a tighter fit on resoling. At least it could explain their feeling the shoe to be tighter.

Ugh. I guess it now comes down to the probability I spoke of in an earlier post, how likely the gemming will detach within the lifetime of well cared for shoes, rotating, avoiding foul weather, etc.

As I've said, the probability is low, but it's not zero. And the same could be said of paper shoes (which may be why so many manufacturers and consumers seem non plussed by the notion of fiberboard insoles)

But that's not the point. The point is to objectively and analytically compare the strengths and weaknesses of various methods of constructing shoes.
post #10556 of 19040
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post
 

Hello mjvoce, those are beautiful shoes!  I wonder if you we asking about products for cleaning your shoes? You could find almost exact matches for both cream and wax, from Saphir or similar. I wonder, though, if a coloured cream/wax might not be such a good idea for the brown, burnished, shoes. Saphir also make 'neutral' products in their cream/wax. Whatever you decide to use, use only the smallest amount! And don't use them very often. Brushing in between wears is, for the most of the time, all the shoes need. 

 

This topic has been visited many times on this thread. Even though you have scrolled through many pages, it might be worth your scrolling a bit more!

 

Thank you! I think so as well. They're the first expensive pairs of shoes I've purchased, so I'm hoping to keep them in the best condition possible. I'm more than likely going to go with a neutral polish for the brown shoes and a something light enough for the oxblood that it won't darken them much so I can keep the contrast between the toe and the rest of the shoe. Although, I've read lots of people mentioning a residue or discoloration left by neutral polish. Is this an actual problem with neutral polish, certain brands or just the methods some people use to polish their shoes?

post #10557 of 19040
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

Re: handstitching the sole to the welt. I think DW has said that, although that handstitching is his routine approach for new shoes, he will machine stitch the soles for clients who are so price conscious that the subtantial savings is worth it to them. I think he has said that most people prepared to pay for bespoke shoes want the full handmade experience, but he does not insist on it. If DW is willing to do that, then he cannot consider the difference between hand and machine stitching for this task to be significant. If he thought it mattered, then machine stiching would not be an option.

That's not a given.

First, machine stitching is Traditional to the work I began with. It is historically correct for the time period and the type of footwear.

Second, at one point in time, I did not know any other way than to machine stitch. I mean I knew, theoretically, how to hand stitch and was even doing it on an occasional basis. But I didn't have the finesse or the knack to bring my work "out," so to speak (still not entirely satisfied but 14spi is my next outing) . That said I was naive enough to suggest on the Crispin Colloquy that if I knew how to hand stitch correctly, I would do nothing else. Another bespoke maker, who I respect greatly (and who posted here for a while) told me I was crazy.

Bottom line is that machine stitching, when done well, is pretty good. It avoids some problems that have to be addressed with hand stitching (such as the channel cover coming loose) and considering it is part of a replaceable component is more than adequate. But hand stitching, done well, is infinitely more refined and functionally just as...maybe more...stable--if only because a hand stitch--a "shoemaker's stitch"--is different than a machine stitch.

Hand stitching is, as I said in one of the few threads I've initiated on this forum, a signal token of craftsmanship, of dedication, and passion, love, and care. And it's what holds my interest currently and over a long time span...for the self-same reason I mentioned in that thread--if a maker can't be bothered to do excellent work where it can be seen, what kind of work is he apt to do where it can't be seen?

One final (hopefully) edit/addendum...I'm not a Traditionalist because I revere nostalgia. I am a Traditionalist because I've seen and tried and compared any number of different methods. And more often than not, I come back to Traditional methods because I am convinced they are the best. 10,00 years of evolution, by makers far better than I will ever be, tells the tale.

--
Edited by DWFII - 8/31/14 at 9:06am
post #10558 of 19040

I've got a pair of burgundy whole cuts, similar (I think) to yours. About once a month I use Saphir Burgundy cream, brushed off and followed by their Burgundy wax, with lots of brushing. I am not sure about your brown, burnished ones. I have used Saphir neutral products and have had no problems with them, but all my shoes are 'self coloured' and do not have the contrasts that yours do. Although I haven't used them, GlenKaren products are reported to be excellent. It depends a bit on where you live. I am in the UK and could order then via a Swedish company (!). It becomes a question of economics, in the end. But, with great shoes, like yours, it is important not to skimp on the details! I have also used Renovator but I am not sure why I stopped using it.  Probably something to do with shoe cleaning routine. Good luck and enjoy your shoes!

post #10559 of 19040
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjvoce View Post

Thank you for the prompt reply. I was actually leaning towards Bick4. Does Bick4 work as a mild cleaner as well as a conditioner? 

Only insofar as any slightly viscous liquid could be considered a cleaner. it may lift some surface dirt and if you wipe the excess Bick4 off, you will also remove that material. Otherwise, don't count on it being a cleaner. Your shoes should always be clean enough that there is no surface dust or debris before you condition.
Quote:
Could I ask what your opinion is on Saphir Renovateur?

I have none. I have Reno but I don't use it much.
post #10560 of 19040

DW,


Regarding hand vs machine stitching soles:

 

Thanks. I spoke freely secure in the knowledge that you would correct and elaborate.

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