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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 702

post #10516 of 10715
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post
 

 

Original manufacturers' repair department could turn down the recrafting job and welts are not always replaced.

 

Calling the rewelting of GY welted shoes "easy to fix" is an overstatement; basically they had to put the shoes through the same assembly line for the recrafting.  That is not easily achievable at your local cobbler.

Not sure I understand the part about the repair department turning down the recrafting job? I assume they could always do this, but what has it to do with GY welting? If the shoes were GY welted originally, surely the recrafting would be GY welted as well?

 

Perhaps "easy" overstates it. I have never seen it done. The article did not declare this to be a major problem, requiring an army of experts to accomplish. It sounded like a routine part of shoe care. If there is more to it than I assumed, I would be happy to be educated.

 

I can accept that it might require the original last, not likely to be available from a local cobbler. But then we are talking about moving from GY to HW avoid the chance that you might have to send the shoes back to the manufacturer. But given that you probably will not have to do this, the relative cost of GY vs HW shoes, and the relative cost of resoling with a local cobbler vs the manufacturer, it hardly seems worth it. What does an AE or Alden recraft cost? $150? And only needed if your cobbler returns the shoes saying they cannot be repaired locally. But to avoid this possible outcome, you boost the price of the new shoes from $300-$450 for AE or Alden to, what $3,000 minimum for HW (I have no idea what they actually cost).

 

If you could get HW for the same price as GY, and you avoid some risk of a more expensive repair, then clearly worth it. If HW was $50 more than GY welted, then distribute that extra cost over the, apparently low, risk of such severe gemming failure that a factory recraft would be required. Maybe worth it at a $50 premium. Maybe not. At $100 more for HW vs GY, hard to see it makes sense. Buy GY welted, have the local cobbler resole. If, occasionally, the cobbler says a pair needs to go to the factory, then so be it. Probably will not happen, but if if does you are still out only the difference between local cobbler resole and factory recraft.

 

An extra $300 to avoid this? Completely out of the question.


Again, tradition, the bespoke experience, appreciation of fine craftmanship, desire to impress the cognoscenti, probably other reasons I cannot imagine, all could justify $5,000 for a pair of Lobbs. But to think you are better off in the long run because you might avoid a few factory recrafts does not seem to add up.

post #10517 of 10715
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

No I didn't miss it.

Of course you didn't miss it...you were just looking for a point to quibble about in my remarks. Something to argue about. That's why you ignored it.

These discussions seldom if ever turn nasty until you or your fellow travelers poke your noses under the tent. This last several pages is a good example of just that. A number of us were having a rational discussion. You brought the irrationality to it. There's a a pattern there.

The "eye of the craftsman" is only applicable to those who can demonstrate their craftsmanship--you know, hands-on, wax under the fingernails shoemaking. Not just nonsensical speculation.

Or their understanding by actually describing reality.

--
Edited by DWFII - 8/30/14 at 5:33pm
post #10518 of 10715
By the way, what is a reasonable price for a resole of HW shoes? In NYC the quotes I've received are around $500 IIRC from one shoemaker/repair shop to around $1300 from JLP.
post #10519 of 10715
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

Not sure I understand the part about the repair department turning down the recrafting job? I assume they could always do this, but what has it to do with GY welting? If the shoes were GY welted originally, surely the recrafting would be GY welted as well?

Perhaps "easy" overstates it. I have never seen it done. The article did not declare this to be a major problem, requiring an army of experts to accomplish. It sounded like a routine part of shoe care. If there is more to it than I assumed, I would be happy to be educated.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I can accept that it might require the original last, not likely to be available from a local cobbler. But then we are talking about moving from GY to HW avoid the chance that you might have to send the shoes back to the manufacturer. But given that you probably will not have to do this, the relative cost of GY vs HW shoes, and the relative cost of resoling with a local cobbler vs the manufacturer, it hardly seems worth it. What does an AE or Alden recraft cost? $150? And only needed if your cobbler returns the shoes saying they cannot be repaired locally. But to avoid this possible outcome, you boost the price of the new shoes from $300-$450 for AE or Alden to, what $3,000 minimum for HW (I have no idea what they actually cost).

If you could get HW for the same price as GY, and you avoid some risk of a more expensive repair, then clearly worth it. If HW was $50 more than GY welted, then distribute that extra cost over the, apparently low, risk of such severe gemming failure that a factory recraft would be required. Maybe worth it at a $50 premium. Maybe not. At $100 more for HW vs GY, hard to see it makes sense. Buy GY welted, have the local cobbler resole. If, occasionally, the cobbler says a pair needs to go to the factory, then so be it. Probably will not happen, but if if does you are still out only the difference between local cobbler resole and factory recraft.

An extra $300 to avoid this? Completely out of the question.


Again, tradition, the bespoke experience, appreciation of fine craftmanship, desire to impress the cognoscenti, probably other reasons I cannot imagine, all could justify $5,000 for a pair of Lobbs. But to think you are better off in the long run because you might avoid a few factory recrafts does not seem to add up.


You see, there's no marker on the insole. No standard distance for the inseam to be placed from the edge of the insole. No way to determine where the gemming was actually placed. . The upper is lasted over the insole after the gemming has been mounted. So if the gemming is 6mm from the edge of the insole in one place and 1cm from the edge in another, it doesn't matter...in the factory. Simply because the upper is lasted and not going to move off that shape and size.

Now the factory may very well have a way of determining how far in from the edge the gemming will be mounted, every time. But they don't pass that information on to shoe salesmen or cobblers. Whether there is an industry standard, is another question.

When the shoe is recrafted, the insole is pulled and the welt discarded and the upper re-lasted over a new insole and gemming. As chogall (?) said, the shoe has to go through all the same operations as it did when it was originally lasted. Again, it doesn't matter...within reason...where the gemming is as long as there is enough of a margin to resew the upper to the gemming.

But you're right it doesn't take an army of experts...all of the experts in shoemaking, working in factories, have long since been pensioned off.

If I were not a shoemaker, I don't know if the financial calculations you're relying on would make sense to me like they do to you.

I'm not sure which came first--the search for excellence in my own work or the appreciation of what excellence requires and entails. Maybe it starts with tools. You can't do anything of value with crappy or makeshift tools.

But I damn sure don't like ticky-tacky--particle board tables or armoires. And I see GY as analogous, esp. in comparison to HW.

It occurs to me (not for the first time) that high end shoes are a luxury item--like single malt scotch. What profiteth it a man if he buys ten bottles of blended scotch and never finds or tastes that next level? That singular, unique flavour? It's a set-up for endless...and needless...frustration, IMO. Wallowing in mediocrity or the mundane makes Jack a dull boy.

I value excellence...I don't really care about price. Maybe that marks me as old fashioned and a dinosaur but in most things I'd rather have the best. Like most people, maybe even moreso than most here, I sometimes can't afford the best right away. Sometimes I have to save. Sometimes, I have to settle for not-the-best.

The one thing I won't do, however, is tell myself...much less other people...that I am buying the best when clearly I'm not.

And BTW, if the box is really and truly unimportant to you, you can find HW, bespoke shoes for prices similar to RTW GY, and sometimes less than some.
--
Edited by DWFII - 8/30/14 at 5:03pm
post #10520 of 10715
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuro View Post

By the way, what is a reasonable price for a resole of HW shoes? In NYC the quotes I've received are around $500 IIRC from one shoemaker/repair shop to around $1300 from JLP.

If no welt needs to be replaced, anything above $150.00...out here in the upper left-hand corner and probably most of middle America...is blue sky.

--
Edited by DWFII - 8/30/14 at 5:04pm
post #10521 of 10715
^fair price. but i think my #s reflect why HW for most in the US of A is a bit of a luxury if a customer isn't lucky enough to know/have someone local... the renowned makers charge more, and to be honest there aren't many local repair shops that have the skills.
post #10522 of 10715
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuro View Post

^fair price. but i think my #s reflect why HW for most in the US of A is a bit of a luxury if a customer isn't lucky enough to know/have someone local... the renowned makers charge more, and to be honest there aren't many local repair shops that have the skills.

Honestly, if they don't have the skills to resole a HW shoe, they don't have the skills to resole a GY welted shoe. All things being equal, there is no difference in the skills needed.

On edit, I have to point out, as well, that if people don't have anyone local, it is far more likely that it is because the demand has dropped off due to so many shoes being made in factories and needing to be sent back to the factory in order to not invalidate the warranty, as well as so many shoes not being repairable in the conventional sense--running shoes etc., than the skills not being there.

They were there but time went by and they retired.

--
Edited by DWFII - 8/30/14 at 5:39pm
post #10523 of 10715
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post


Wonder why?

I don't have to wonder why. You, and others like you, have given me irrefutable insights into why.

The real question is why Janne Mellkersohn is no longer here? Or Jan Petter Myhre? Or James Ducker? Or Marcel Mrsan? Most of them were here, and left, before me.

But, at bottom, this isn't about them, or me...it's about you, by your own admission, deliberately distorting my response to. another. forum. member. for the sole purpose of stirring up trouble. To start an argument.

--
Edited by DWFII - 8/30/14 at 6:26pm
post #10524 of 10715
Nick,

Do you charge more to resole HW shoes?

DW,

As I said, I can imagine all sorts of reasons to prefer bespoke shoes. Like many other luxury items I will never buy, I am sure the superiority of HW will be obvious to those who really care. Just pointing out that the possibility of significant gemming failure is hardly a reason to go HW. If your GYW gemming fails, I suspect most men would never know. The cobbler would reattach it, resole, and give them back. Since you now have new soles and a flat footbed, the fit will always be different than just before the work. Perhaps an expert could distinguish the change in fit do to a normal resole from that due to Gemming slip. I seriously doubt I could.

And if the fit changed, is that bad? It is a RTW shoe built on a standard last. It was not custom fit for my foot in the first place, the fit changes as it is worn, and changes again when resoled. If I were going to worry about something, I might be more concerned about the loss of my molded footbed.

But then neither bespoke nor high end RTW are anywhere in my future. Interesting to learn about, but I am far too cheap to buy such things.
post #10525 of 10715
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post



DW,

As I said, I can imagine all sorts of reasons to prefer bespoke shoes. Like many other luxury items I will never buy, I am sure the superiority of HW will be obvious to those who really care. Just pointing out that the possibility of significant gemming failure is hardly a reason to go HW. If your GYW gemming fails, I suspect most men would never know. The cobbler would reattach it, resole, and give them back. Since you now have new soles and a flat footbed, the fit will always be different than just before the work. Perhaps an expert could distinguish the change in fit do to a normal resole from that due to Gemming slip. I seriously doubt I could.

And if the fit changed, is that bad? It is a RTW shoe built on a standard last. It was not custom fit for my foot in the first place, the fit changes as it is worn, and changes again when resoled. If I were going to worry about something, I might be more concerned about the loss of my molded footbed.

But then neither bespoke nor high end RTW are anywhere in my future. Interesting to learn about, but I am far too cheap to buy such things.

Fundamentally, I agree with most of what you said. And disagree with everything.

No worries.
post #10526 of 10715
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I don't have to wonder why. You, and others like you, have given me irrefutable insights into why.

The real question is why Janne Mellkersohn is no longer here? Or Jan Petter Myhre? Or James Ducker? Or Marcel Mrsan? Most of them were here, and left, before me.

But, at bottom, this isn't about them, or me...it's about you, by your own admission, deliberately distorting my response to. another. forum. member. for the sole purpose of stirring up trouble. To start an argument.

--

I think you give me to much credit.....What are you talking about???
post #10527 of 10715
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

Nick,

Do you charge more to resole HW shoes?

DW,

As I said, I can imagine all sorts of reasons to prefer bespoke shoes. Like many other luxury items I will never buy, I am sure the superiority of HW will be obvious to those who really care. Just pointing out that the possibility of significant gemming failure is hardly a reason to go HW. If your GYW gemming fails, I suspect most men would never know. The cobbler would reattach it, resole, and give them back. Since you now have new soles and a flat footbed, the fit will always be different than just before the work. Perhaps an expert could distinguish the change in fit do to a normal resole from that due to Gemming slip. I seriously doubt I could.

And if the fit changed, is that bad? It is a RTW shoe built on a standard last. It was not custom fit for my foot in the first place, the fit changes as it is worn, and changes again when resoled. If I were going to worry about something, I might be more concerned about the loss of my molded footbed.

But then neither bespoke nor high end RTW are anywhere in my future. Interesting to learn about, but I am far too cheap to buy such things.

Same price as GY welted. Prices are listed on my web-site. It's the same work unless you request some custom work done. Then the price can vary.
post #10528 of 10715
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Of course you didn't miss it...you were just looking for a point to quibble about in my remarks. Something to argue about. That's why you ignored it.

These discussions seldom if ever turn nasty until you or your fellow travelers poke your noses under the tent. This last several pages is a good example of just that. A number of us were having a rational discussion. You brought the irrationality to it. There's a a pattern there.

The "eye of the craftsman" is only applicable to those who can demonstrate their craftsmanship--you know, hands-on, wax under the fingernails shoemaking. Not just nonsensical speculation.

Or their understanding by actually describing reality.

--


Skirting the issues get again. I brought some legitimate viable points to the discussion. But you as our "self proclaimed" Grand High Mystic Ruler can't handle controversy. I didn't ignore anything. I addressed it. You have intimidated and chased many away. We all know that. Yes, you have admitted that you are a crotchety old timer and that's you're style. Fine, you have lot's to offer. Great but, if anyone has a "pattern" sadly it's you. Criticizing spelling, grammar, for what? Stating that you don't like to bring up the fact that I actually don't do the work bc according to you I am sensitive about that but you do it all the time. I can almost predict the tone of you're responses before I hit the "submit button. That's just a very insecure Dude to me. So let me help you.....I NEVER REPAIRED A PAIR OF SHOES IN MY LIFE!!!!!! SHOUT IT FROM THE MOUNTAINTOPS!!!!! But I'll remind you yet AGAIN, I'm damn proud of that! What "tent" are you imagining? Maybe DW's tent? You know when gemming releases it's easy to spot where it originally belonged. If you don't, you never did repair work on a level worth talking about.
Then again in my 40+ years I have seen well over 100,000 pair of shoes taken apart and rebuilt. I doubt if you have seen 5% of that. But. teach me about repairs Sire.
post #10529 of 10715
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

I NEVER REPAIRED A PAIR OF SHOES IN MY LIFE!!!!!! .

I didn't know that... but I'm not surprised. In this case, "the eye of the craftsman" really means sidewalk superintendent.

Maybe if you watch enough old episodes of Dr. Kildare, you can give us all medical advice, too.
post #10530 of 10715
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post
 

Not sure I understand the part about the repair department turning down the recrafting job? I assume they could always do this, but what has it to do with GY welting? If the shoes were GY welted originally, surely the recrafting would be GY welted as well?

 

Perhaps "easy" overstates it. I have never seen it done. The article did not declare this to be a major problem, requiring an army of experts to accomplish. It sounded like a routine part of shoe care. If there is more to it than I assumed, I would be happy to be educated.

 

I can accept that it might require the original last, not likely to be available from a local cobbler. But then we are talking about moving from GY to HW avoid the chance that you might have to send the shoes back to the manufacturer. But given that you probably will not have to do this, the relative cost of GY vs HW shoes, and the relative cost of resoling with a local cobbler vs the manufacturer, it hardly seems worth it. What does an AE or Alden recraft cost? $150? And only needed if your cobbler returns the shoes saying they cannot be repaired locally. But to avoid this possible outcome, you boost the price of the new shoes from $300-$450 for AE or Alden to, what $3,000 minimum for HW (I have no idea what they actually cost).

 

If you could get HW for the same price as GY, and you avoid some risk of a more expensive repair, then clearly worth it. If HW was $50 more than GY welted, then distribute that extra cost over the, apparently low, risk of such severe gemming failure that a factory recraft would be required. Maybe worth it at a $50 premium. Maybe not. At $100 more for HW vs GY, hard to see it makes sense. Buy GY welted, have the local cobbler resole. If, occasionally, the cobbler says a pair needs to go to the factory, then so be it. Probably will not happen, but if if does you are still out only the difference between local cobbler resole and factory recraft.

 

An extra $300 to avoid this? Completely out of the question.


Again, tradition, the bespoke experience, appreciation of fine craftmanship, desire to impress the cognoscenti, probably other reasons I cannot imagine, all could justify $5,000 for a pair of Lobbs. But to think you are better off in the long run because you might avoid a few factory recrafts does not seem to add up.

 

I was not talking about the pros and cons of HW or GY welting. 

 

I was stating the fact that GY Welted manufacturers could turn down repair jobs based on different conditions of the shoes; i.e., if the upper is cracked, upper lining hole, insole hole, improperly repaired by other cobblers, etc.  And they won't know until they disassembled your shoes.  FYI, AE only recrafts their own shoes once or twice.

 

Recrafting RTW shoes at the manufacturer usually costs 1/4 to 1/3 of the retail price for the British makers, i.e., $450-$500 for John Lobb RTW.  It's fairly reasonable as they send the shoes through the assembly line, doing the recrafting at cost.  Thus it's not always the affordable $150 that AE charges.  Or the $250+shipping that Saint Crispin charges.

 

Economics never justify wearing GY welted or HW shoes.  A poorly made cemented rubber sole shoes that costs $10 @ Payless will always beat out any GY welted or HW shoes in the long run.  I buy welted shoes because they look and age well and I love the artisanship behind bespoke shoes.

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