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con rollino vs. spalla camicia

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
I'm just curious what people's opinions are in comparing the two.

I just confirmed my fitting on thursday for the first of two new bespoke jackets. I'm quite a bit more experienced with various silhouettes since my first bespoke job and i'm leaning towards soft tailoring from now on. I try to wear a jacket every day so comfort is of paramount importance.

My last jacket, which featured relatively light padding and roped sleeveheads was cut with too little allowance in the places that mattered for freedom of movement. It's largely my fault because i thought i could have a perfectly clean, smooth exterior and complete freedom of movement, however I now know better. I'm going to have it altered, but not until next year. I'm still working-out but it's going a lot slower since the doctor told me to stop taking protein. On my new jackets i'm going to ask him to build in a tiny little allowance (I'm not trying to get huge). This shouldn't be a big deal since size 38 borrellis fit well and look very good on me, although my first bespoke measures out to a 37.5.

It should be said that neopolitan isn't this tailor's regular style, however the nature of his business is such that he cuts all sorts of different silhouettes as opposed to sticking to just one and i'm quite confident he can pull it off. He does lots of soft tailoring for a big client in new york so none of this will be completely new to him. He has done this type of shoulder in the past, although not recently. Regardless, I'm not endeavoring to have a true neapolitan jacket made, for that would mean that it is to be un-padded, but more a copy of an borrelli style of coat with light padding.

If I understand thigns correctly, borrelli makes their jackets with a trumpet sleeve con rollino? One thing I am confused about is that my borrelli jackets have the gathered cloth and puffed sleevehead indicative of con rollino, yet there is also pick-stitching on top of the shoulder which is suggestive of spalla camicia. I'm not wearing one right now so i can't do a close enough inspection to really determine which is is. Can anyone answer for me? It's also possible that the construction is con rollino but that the pick-stitching over the shoulder is done purely for aesthetic reaons.

My last question is what tends to happen to the alignment of a windowpane when you make a trumpet sleeve? Does it throw-off the alignment of the horizontal lines by a significant or insignificant amount? I'd think that it would have to, but looking at the pictures that have been posted of neapolitan jackets (mine are all plain), that doesn't seem to be the case. In percentage terms, how much does the circumference of the armscye and sleevehead generally vary?

Lastly, I'll be printing out Manton's terrific post and bringing it with me for the diagrams, just so there are no misunderstandings between my tailor and I.
post #2 of 15
First of all, Borrelli is not really a good representation of a Neapolitan (not neo) jacket, but it is a nice cut...

A "manica camicia" is simply where the sleeve of the jacket is set into the armhole in the same fashion as a shirt sleeve is fitted. It can have wrinkles, padding, whatever. The whole idea is that it is set in like a shirt.

A "rollino" is a little piece of padding (Alden at the LL describes it as a pipecleaner) that gives a bump up at the sleevehead. I think that they look ridiculous, but that is just me.

Windowpanes come out fine with shirtsleeves or without. I wouldn't even give that a thought.

Re pickstitching, you can pickstitch anything. It doesn't really mean a darn thing. If you look at any Neapolitan shirt, there isn't even stitching where the pickstitching you are talking about is. The pickstitching is not what attaches the sleeve.

If you want something that is Neapolitan in detail but not necessarily in cut, make sure that he laps and picks every seam. That is the one constant in Naples.
post #3 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iammatt
First of all, Borrelli is not really a good representation of a Neapolitan (not neo) jacket, but it is a nice cut...

A "manica camicia" is simply where the sleeve of the jacket is set into the armhole in the same fashion as a shirt sleeve is fitted. It can have wrinkles, padding, whatever. The whole idea is that it is set in like a shirt.

A "rollino" is a little piece of padding (Alden at the LL describes it as a pipecleaner) that gives a bump up at the sleevehead. I think that they look ridiculous, but that is just me.

Windowpanes come out fine with shirtsleeves or without. I wouldn't even give that a thought.

Re pickstitching, you can pickstitch anything. It doesn't really mean a darn thing. If you look at any Neapolitan shirt, there isn't even stitching where the pickstitching you are talking about is. The pickstitching is not what attaches the sleeve.

If you want something that is Neapolitan in detail but not necessarily in cut, make sure that he laps and picks every seam. That is the one constant in Naples.

No I realize know that borrelli isn't a neoplitan, but I don't want true neapolitan. From manton's post, rollino doesn't use padding (what you're referring to is I believe called banana, at least over here), but the sleevehead puffs out a bit because of the closed seams which are forced outward, as opposed to in spalla camicia in which case the seams are sewn in such a way that they attach to the neck-side of the shoulder causing the sleeve to fall straight down in a "rainfall effect" as manton puts it.

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/T...anShoulder.htm

there's the post in case anyone needs a refresher.
post #4 of 15
You can get that puff with our without a sleevehead wadding (the "pipe cleaner"). What the wadding does is smooth out the rainfall and clean up the sleevehead.
post #5 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek
No I realize know that borrelli isn't a neoplitan, but I don't want true neapolitan. From manton's post, rollino doesn't use padding (what you're referring to is I believe called banana, at least over here), but the sleevehead puffs out a bit because of the closed seams which are forced outward, as opposed to in spalla camicia in which case the seams are sewn in such a way that they attach to the neck-side of the shoulder causing the sleeve to fall straight down in a "rainfall effect" as manton puts it.

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/T...anShoulder.htm

there's the post in case anyone needs a refresher.
The only reason that I mention about the difference between Borrelli and what you see a lot in Naples is that Borrelli is meant to be worn very, very lean (at least according to them) and it changes the way that the shoulder fits. They have pretty narrow shoulders where as in Naples you see wider rather than narrower shoulders. This is going to effect how the sleevehead sits. Borrelli also is made with a very narrow sleevehead and sleeve. If I understand what you are saying that you want, you should probably just go for something without wadding and the shoulder will come out very nicely.
post #6 of 15
Thread Starter 
Has anyone ever seen a one button peak lapel on an italian-inspired jacket as opposed to the more traditional english one? I was going to do 3 roll 2 anyway, or is rolling through the top button part of the charm? What kind of pockets would be best, regular flap pockets? Hacking pockets perhaps? I've always thought that hacking pockets went great with a 1 button jacket.

It's been a while since i saw the fabric but from what I remember it's an 11-12oz. brown/bronze twill with a blue windowpane that melds beautifully with the bronzish-brown that makes up the bulk of the surface area.

Opinions?
post #7 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek
Has anyone ever seen a one button peak lapel on an italian-inspired jacket as opposed to the more traditional english one?

Does a dinner jacket count? Flaps with peak lapels seem a bit incongruous to me because flaps are more casual and peaks are more formal. Same with hacking pockets, but perhaps you are on to something new?

--Andre
post #8 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Yew
Does a dinner jacket count? Flaps with peak lapels seem a bit incongruous to me because flaps are more casual and peaks are more formal. Same with hacking pockets, but perhaps you are on to something new?

--Andre

That's a good point. i've seen so few jackets with peak lapels around that I thought it prudent to ask. I suppose i've seen peak with single button, and single button with with hacking pockets, but never the three things together.
post #9 of 15
You can't walk two blocks in any city in Italy right now without seeing a plethora of peak-lapel SB suits and jackets. I don't really check out pockets much, but IMO, a sportcoat would look ridiculous without flaps. I prefer 3/2 with patch pockets, but think that 3 with peak lapels and flap pockets would be fine.
post #10 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iammatt
You can't walk two blocks in any city in Italy right now without seeing a plethora of peak-lapel SB suits and jackets. I don't really check out pockets much, but IMO, a sportcoat would look ridiculous without flaps. I prefer 3/2 with patch pockets, but think that 3 with peak lapels and flap pockets would be fine.

You'd do 3/2 on a peak lapel?
post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek
You'd do 3/2 on a peak lapel?
I think Attolini's site has some pics of 2.5s with peak lapels, some with patch pockets, IMMSMC. They are quite striking.
post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 
I just checked and they're no longer there.
post #13 of 15
Someone posted this pic a while back: Lapels not my taste, personally.
post #14 of 15
I love Attolini, but I must say that 3/2 peak lapel suit looks horrible.

For the Attolini silouette, I think their 1 button SB peak lapel looks very good. Other than a tux from Attolini, I would take an odd jacket rather than a suit (something like the velvet dinner type jacket on their site) if I was to go with a SB peak.

I think they had some SB peaks with hacking pockets on their site last year, but those didn`t look so hot either. The lapels and pockets create a big X silouette.

I`ve seen some pics of Rubinacci 1 button SB peaks and they look pretty nice. The Rubinacci ones actually look better as a suit.
post #15 of 15
Can anyone tell me exactly where the rope in the roped shoulder is supposed to lie on the shoulder? The end of the deltoid muscle? That last bit of bone? Reason I ask is because I got a roped shouldered jacket but there's an ugly depression immediately below the upper arc of the rope... I'm thinking it was extended too far out from my natural shoulder, but when I touch it, it feels like the rope is actually resting on the deltoid muscle. Related pics I found, not me (of course). Notice the sleeve extends out from the roped shoulder in the pic on the left, no depression or anything like on mine.
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