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Where Have the Good Men Gone - Page 5

post #61 of 166
wut. TLDR, and sounds like some angry feminist rant.
post #62 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeAgent View Post
As a single guy who has been in the dating pool a while, there is definitely truth in that follow-up. I was recently asked out by a woman who then had me pay for the date ($20/person brunch). Seriously? I'm not trying to run some sort of upscale food bank here. Some women are also incredibly focused on their careers to the point where they take themselves out of the dating pool entirely, with or without knowing it. I have a lot less experience with what men other than myself do in terms of dating because I'm not trying to date other men, but I'm sure we screw things up similarly.
Funny you should say that in terms of really career focused women. I remember a few years back when I went back to night school at a local university for a public relations diploma, the woman (early-mid 30 something) sitting in front of me in the first course, a pretty brunette caught my eye, we'll call her Nicole. Some sparks flew so I asked her out for coffee once halfway through the course. Nicole thought I wanted an information interview as she was already in PR for a commercial real estate firm. I had something else in mind other than an information interview, I did not even ask for one though in hindsight it would have been a good idea. I just wanted to get to know Nicole better and that was not going to happen.
post #63 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Smith View Post
Funny you should say that in terms of really career focused women. I remember a few years back when I went back to night school at a local university for a public relations diploma, the woman (early-mid 30 something) sitting in front of me in the first course, a pretty brunette caught my eye, we'll call her Nicole.

Some sparks flew so I asked her out for coffee once halfway through the course. Nicole thought I wanted an information interview as she was already in PR for a commercial real estate firm. I had something else in mind other than an information interview, I did not even ask for one though in hindsight it would have been a good idea. I just wanted to get to know Nicole better and that was not going to happen.

Should have asked for a job.
post #64 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Smith View Post
Funny you should say that in terms of really career focused women. I remember a few years back I went back to night school at a local university for a public relations diploma, the woman (early-mid 30 something) sitting in front of me a pretty brunette caught my eye, we'll call her Nicole.

Some sparks flew so I asked her out for coffee once halfway through the course. Nicole thought I wanted an information interview as she was already in PR for a commercial real estate firm. I had something else in mind other than an information interview, I did not even ask for one though in hindsight it would have been a good idea. I just wanted to get to know Nicole better, that was not going to happen.

Ouch. I'm thinking she was either obtuse or she didn't want to say no to you and figured that would be easier (I hate that type of strategy...).
post #65 of 166
The eternalbachelor site looks really gay.
post #66 of 166
Quote:
Men are really, really angry. Consider: "We're not STUCK in pre-adulthood, we choose it because there aren't any desirable American women. They've been bred to abuse men." This fairly typical response that appeared at the Seattle Post Intelligencer website: "Sorry ladies. In the age of PlayStation 3s, 24-hours-a-day sports channels, and free Internet porn, you are now obsolete. All that nagging, whining, and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you." ... this is bitterness from guys who find the young women they might have hoped to hang out with entitled, dishonest, self-involved, slutty, manipulative, shallow, controlling"”and did I mention gold-digging?

If young women haven't all graciously assumed the responsibility that comes with their new level of socio-economic power, well, it's not as if the men who've had the power in the past have set much of an example. Men have as much right as women to complain when they're treated unfairly; but seriously, any guy who chooses extended adolescence because "there aren't any desirable American women" is no prize himself, just as one who thinks video games, sports channels, and porn render real women and real relationships "obsolete" is in no position to accuse women of "whining."

Gold-digging? Men have traditionally relied on their economic prowess as leverage in the mating game, so much so that it largely precluded the need for looks, kindness, manners, and so on. With women coming into their own financially, men have to up their game on multiple fronts"”including the fiscal one. The dudes flocking to websites like EternalBachelor to vent their spleens simply can't cut it on a relatively even playing field. They won't be happy until the clock turns back to 1952, and that ain't gonna happen.

Quote:
Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren't so sure. The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete. Or, they might want men to play Greatest Generation gentleman. Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates"”a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece "Call me and ask me out for a damn date!""”and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: "WTF??!" Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner? After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities.

Sure, girls can"”and do"”ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. Women can make that choice. Men say they have no choice. If they want a life, they have to ask women out on dates; they have to initiate conversations at bars and parties, they have to take the lead on sex. Women can take a Chinese menu approach to gender roles. They can be all "Let me pay for the movie tickets" on Friday nights, and "A single rose? That's it?" on Valentine's Day.

Far worse in the bait and switch category is women's stated preference for nice guys and actual attraction to bad boys...

Men have same choice women have: they can wait until asked, or muster their courage and do the asking. And, really, opening doors on dates and springing for a dozen roses on Valentine's Day are challenges? Yes, dating costs money, buy it doesn't have to cost a lot unless you don't know any way to a woman's heart save for spending yourself into it. No heart that's for sale is worth buying, anyway.

Yeah, different women have different dating habits and expectations: this is new? The double standards that men apply to women haven't gone away either: there are all sorts of threads on this website about how "desperate" women (those who have sex too readily or otherwise appear too eager) are a turn-off on the one hand, and that extol "hit it and quit it" hook-ups on the other. So, while the guys are still caught up in the whole madonna/whore thing, the gals are still looking for Prince Charming with a bad boy streak. This has been an issue since the Stone Age. Part of growing up is figuring out who you really are and what you really want. Until men and women alike cash a reality check, they're all going to be just overgrown boys and girls.
post #67 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeAgent View Post
Ouch. I'm thinking she was either obtuse or she didn't want to say no to you and figured that would be easier (I hate that type of strategy...).
Having been around long enough I would rather have a woman say, "Sorry but I'm just not that interested" than being on the receiving end of an obtuse reply or an easy way out.
post #68 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstoller View Post

Yeah, different women have different dating habits and expectations: this is new? The double standards that men apply to women haven't gone away either: there are all sorts of threads on this website about how "desperate" women (those who have sex too readily or otherwise appear too eager) are a turn-off on the one hand, and that extol "hit it and quit it" hook-ups on the other. So, while the guys are still caught up in the whole madonna/whore thing, the gals are still looking for Prince Charming with a bad boy streak. This has been an issue since the Stone Age. Part of growing up is figuring out who you really are and what you really want. Until men and women alike cash a reality check, they're all going to be just overgrown boys and girls.

Well put, unfortunately, I would not hold my breath on the massive cash in of reality checks with North American men and women anytime soon.
post #69 of 166
As someone that was married before 25 and having a child at 27, I can say that I think I'm really the odd man out, and not suprisingly my wife too. Out of all our friends combined, we the only one married, that plan for retirement, the only one that wants kids. I'm just bewildered sometimes that my priorities in life, marriage, children, are different than those of my friends. The only thing we have in common is trying to make as much money as possible, and buying as much shit we don't need thanks to being a consumerist whore, both of which I am ahead of thanks to working insanely hard and spending it insanely hard.

I really truly believe that society has changed, an evolution if you want to call it that, and that priorities are different. For me, it's getting married and having children, I guess something that was valued in the past. Now, people just want a good time without the responsibilities, and that's cool too if that's what you want.

Quote:
PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.

This really applies to a lot of men these days, and I was in this share of men when I was out of college. Women these days, a lot of them are real bitches. As much as I am a consumerist whore (thanks society), it's tough to realize that you are fresh out of college, no work experience, and not making a ton of money so you feel like the odds are stacked against you. The article with the 6 points for women to get married really hit home on almost all the women I dated before I met my wife.
post #70 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Smith View Post
I would not hold my breath on the massive cash in of reality checks with North American men and women anytime soon.

Nor would I. However, we can hope that people who wait longer to marry will be more likely to get it right the first time, so long as they achieve some personal growth in their single years. (And by "personal growth," I don't mean either upping one's WoW score or partying on Viagra and Red Bull.)
post #71 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstoller View Post
Nor would I. However, we can hope that people who wait longer to marry will be more likely to get it right the first time, so long as they achieve some personal growth in their single years. (And by "personal growth," I don't mean either upping one's WoW score or partying on Viagra and Red Bull.)
Agreed. I'm going on 43 and never married, but if the right woman came along, it's something I want to do. I prefer to get it right the first time thank you very much.
post #72 of 166
On the drive home, I remembered something somebody said to me years ago. It was something along the times of, "Don't have any permanent idealogical thoughts in an ever changing world." Maybe that's the problem with these authors, and people that making "finding women/men" one of the biggest searches in life. Trying to do it like they use to in the old days may not work anymore, and if sperm donors and invitro is the new future, we will all be the past anyways.
post #73 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Smith View Post
I'm going on 43 and never married, but if the right woman came along, it's something I want to do. I prefer to get it right the first time thank you very much.

I married at 42. I first met and dated my wife when I was 18; had we married then, it would have been a disaster. I did not waste the intervening years griping about how terrible women are, but rather learning how wonderful they can be. Now, I can scarcely imagine being, or wanting to be, single.
post #74 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raralith View Post
I really truly believe that society has changed, an evolution if you want to call it that, and that priorities are different. For me, it's getting married and having children, I guess something that was valued in the past. Now, people just want a good time without the responsibilities, and that's cool too if that's what you want.

This really applies to a lot of men these days, and I was in this share of men when I was out of college. Women these days, a lot of them are real bitches. As much as I am a consumerist whore (thanks society), it's tough to realize that you are fresh out of college, no work experience, and not making a ton of money so you feel like the odds are stacked against you. The article with the 6 points for women to get married really hit home on almost all the women I dated before I met my wife.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pstoller View Post
No heart that's for sale is worth buying, anyway.

Well said.
post #75 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raralith View Post
I'm just bewildered sometimes that my priorities in life, marriage, children, are different than those of my friends. The only thing we have in common is trying to make as much money as possible, and buying as much shit we don't need thanks to being a consumerist whore, both of which I am ahead of thanks to working insanely hard and spending it insanely hard.

I really truly believe that society has changed, an evolution if you want to call it that, and that priorities are different. For me, it's getting married and having children, I guess something that was valued in the past. Now, people just want a good time without the responsibilities, and that's cool too if that's what you want.

... Women these days, a lot of them are real bitches. As much as I am a consumerist whore (thanks society), it's tough to realize that you are fresh out of college, no work experience, and not making a ton of money so you feel like the odds are stacked against you.

You make it sound as if being a consumerist whore were an imposition rather than a choice. If you're capable of recognizing it, then you're capable of opting out. If you don't want to, that's fine"”lots of us choose to drive a German luxury car rather than a Korean economy car"”but don't blame "society" for that. Maybe you should be stocking your kids' college funds insanely hard instead of buying "shit we don't need." Just a thought.

People have always wanted to have a good time without responsibilities. It's just that few have been able to achieve or sustain that lifestyle into adulthood (and those who do ultimately do so on the backs of everyone else). Married or not, good times still come with a price tag, and the recent economic implosion is just one example of what happens when everyone defers the costs. That's not cool.

So, a lot of women are real bitches? Great; they're just making it that much easier for men to avoid wasting time, energy, and money on them in favor of women who would make far better partners in life. If only all people with whom we're ultimately incompatible would make it so obvious at the start.
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