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Where Have the Good Men Gone - Page 4

post #46 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
Richard Branson

The myth of the college drop out is a logical fallacy:

  • Some very successful entrepreneurs dropped out of school
  • Therefore, if I drop out of school I am more likely to become a successful entrepreneur

This is incorrect. The majority of self-made millionaires are college educated. Only 20% do not have a college degree (compared to 45% of the general population). 18% have masters, 8% law, 6% medical, 6% PHDs - so 58% have at least an undergraduate degree (source: Millionaire Next Door).

If you have the opportunity to go to college, it still seems like a good investment of time and money even if you want to do your own thing.

Back to the original topic, it seems that there's no good reason to grow up any more hence perpetual adolescence.

We are told from a young age (especially in America) to pursue our passions and that we can do anything we want, so picking a focus feels like we're selling out our dreams - especially if it feels like we're settling for something boring but stable.

If we don't know what our passions are (and most people don't), we wait around to find them - taking temp jobs, playing video games and wondering what we are missing out on. What the author of the article describes as "growing up" feels like settling (and thus failing).
post #47 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey_birdman View Post
What? When has this ever happened?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...igrationpolicy
post #48 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazerac View Post
Maybe men should start thinking in terms of not signing up with a company and instead strike out on their own.

A lot of it has to do with capital formation. There are some exceptions, but if you're an socioeconomically average guy or gal you are going to come out of college with debt. Your ability to get together the necessary funds to make a real go at independence becomes difficult.

It is becoming increasingly acceptable to forgo college or defer it, and that approach makes much more sense in today's economy. Given the demise of the humanities and classical education in college, I see little value in it outside of being able to cross off that resume tickbox or learn a specialization.

I recall Glenn Reynolds (instapundit) describing college debt as the new indentured servitude. There is much to agree with that characterization.
post #49 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAMOR View Post
+1 but why is she shitting on "this" woman when she herself has divorced 3 times?

In the case of the article I posted, Tracy McMillan is from personal experience stating, "behave like the examples in my piece, is not going snag you the husband you want deep down."

I have long come to the conclusion that men and women can be their own worst enemies in personal relationships.
post #50 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by acecow View Post
That's a great article, Bill Smith. Thank you for posting it, I enjoyed it.

My pleasure, it was a good piece by and large.
post #51 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humperdink View Post
The world needs fewer idiots with pointless start-up ideas. It'd be much more lucrative to be the dude who started Zappos.com rather than the intern just starting out for Zappos.com, but at the end of the day, both m-f'ers are selling discount shoes online. Somebody gets rich, somebody gets a decent 401k, but none of the Steve McQueen, "self-made-man," rosebud shit is as romantic nor as personally or socially valuable as you make it out to be.

"Strike out on your own" is some lame 19th century American Dream bullshit that never had any basis in historical or present reality. So it's appropriate you're quoting a fictional character in Tony Soprano, who passed out at the sight of fucking ducks.

If I had a dollar for every lame ass pointless start up idea/business model.....
post #52 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by countdemoney View Post
A lot of it has to do with capital formation. There are some exceptions, but if you're an socioeconomically average guy or gal you are going to come out of college with debt. Your ability to get together the necessary funds to make a real go at independence becomes difficult.

It is becoming increasingly acceptable to forgo college or defer it, and that approach makes much more sense in today's economy. Given the demise of the humanities and classical education in college, I see little value in it outside of being able to cross off that resume tickbox or learn a specialization.

I recall Glenn Reynolds (instapundit) describing college debt as the new indentured servitude. There is much to agree with that characterization.

It's funny, but I went to a state school and worked full-time to pay tuition. I'm not saying this to sound all bootstrappy, but that envy I felt toward the kids from the other side of the tracks vanished when I found I could make rent because I had zero in student loans and they were up to their eyeballs in debt.

As to the formation of capital, you make an excellent point. Personally I found the easiest way to build wealth was through real estate, but that was only because the returns were good (at the time) and there were well-established avenues for borrowing money where the real estate itself was the collateral and in the interest rates weren't usurious.

I do think college is valuable, however, in terms of shaping your knowledge of the world so you have some idea of cultural context. But in terms of practical skills, I, at least, gained none at all. I studied philosophy and political science and ended up working on Madison Avenue. Writing a senior thesis on Frantz Fanon hardly prepared me to write Ford commercials.
post #53 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valproate View Post
"Behind every successful man is a woman who makes it necessary."


QFT
post #54 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazerac View Post
I studied philosophy and political science and ended up working on Madison Avenue. Writing a senior thesis on Frantz Fanon hardly prepared me to write Ford commercials.

I wonder. So much of advertising plays/preys on the sorts of things you learn about individuals and society in precisely those college courses. Plus, while writing a thesis about Fanon may not be direct preparation for writing Ford commercials, learning to write well is. Few enough college graduates are competent writers, never mind those with less education.

Besides, couldn't you distill something from Fanon for one of those countless car ads equating driving with freedom?
post #55 of 166
A follow up from Kay Hymowitz on the WSJ piece.
Quote:
Men in their twenties and thirties are fed up with women, but author Kay Hymowitz says you can’t blame them when women are demanding equality except when it comes to romance. About a week ago, The Wall Street Journal published an excerpt of my new book, which argued that the new stage I call pre-adulthood—the twenties and early thirties—was not bringing out the best in single young men. Some men didn’t like it. As in, “cancel-my-subscription-the-writer-should-contract-such-a-bad-case-of-carpel-tunnel-syndrome-she-never-writes-again” didn’t like it. But a lot of the responses unwittingly proved my point—and another one: Men are really, really angry. Consider: “We’re not STUCK in pre-adulthood, we choose it because there aren’t any desirable American women. They’ve been bred to abuse men.” This fairly typical response that appeared at the Seattle Post Intelligencer website: “Sorry ladies. In the age of PlayStation 3s, 24-hours-a-day sports channels, and free Internet porn, you are now obsolete. All that nagging, whining, and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you." Shocked? I wasn t. During the last few years researching this age group, I’ve stumbled onto a powerful underground current of male bitterness that has nothing to do with outsourcing, the Mancession, or any of the other issues we usually associate with contemporary male discontent. No, this is bitterness from guys who find the young women they might have hoped to hang out with entitled, dishonest, self-involved, slutty, manipulative, shallow, controlling—and did I mention gold-digging? Check out the websites like names like MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), Nomarriage.com, or EternalBachelor.com (“Give Modern Women the Husband They Deserve. None.”). Or read popular bloggers like the pseudonymous Roissy, a ferociously caustic dissector of female “sluttiness” and “shit tests” (attempts to manipulate men). There are dozens upon dozens of gurus and counselors who publish posts like “42 Things Wrong With American Women” while chat forums ruminate over how “American Women Suck.” Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure. So, is this what Susan Faludi famously called the backlash? Is it immaturity, as my own book seems to suggest? Is it the Internet as an escape valve for decades of pent-up rebellion against political correctness? Or, is it just good, old-fashioned misogyny? A bit of all of the above, probably. But there’s another reason for these rants, one that is far less understood. Let’s call it gender bait and switch. Never before in history have men been matched up with women who are so much their equal—socially, professionally, and sexually. By the time they reach their twenties, they have years of experience with women as equal competitors—in school, on soccer fields, and even in bed. They very reasonably assume that the women they are meeting at a bar or café or gym are after the same things they are: financial independence, career success, toned triceps, and sex. That’s the bait; here comes the switch. Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure. The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete. Or, they might want men to play Greatest Generation gentleman. Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates—a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece “Call me and ask me out for a damn date!”—and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: “WTF??!” Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner? After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities. Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. Women can make that choice. Men say they have no choice. If they want a life, they have to ask women out on dates; they have to initiate conversations at bars and parties, they have to take the lead on sex. Women can take a Chinese menu approach to gender roles. They can be all “Let me pay for the movie tickets” on Friday nights, and “A single rose? That’s it?” on Valentine’s Day. Far worse in the bait and switch category is women’s stated preference for nice guys and actual attraction to bad boys. Now, clearly this is not true for all women. Many, maybe even most, want a guy with the sweetness of a Jimmy Stewart and sensitivity of Ashley Wilkes. But enough of them are partial to the Charlie Sheens of this world that one popular dating guru, David DeAngleo, lists “Being Too Much of a Nice Guy” as No. 1 in his “Ten Most Dangerous Mistakes Men Make With Women.” At a website with the evocative name Relationshit.com, (“Brutally honest dating advice for the cynical, bitter, and jaded,” and sociological cousin of Dating-is-Hell.com) the most highly trafficked pages are those asking the question why women don’t like good guys. PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way. Kay S. Hymowitz is the William E. Simon Fellow at the Manhattan Institute and a contributing editor of City Journal. Her new book is Manning Up.
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post #56 of 166
Hmm.
post #57 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Smith View Post
A follow up from Kay Hymowitz on the WSJ piece.

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I actually concur with this.
post #58 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkarim View Post
I actually concur with this.
This piece made a rather interesting bookend to the WSJ column. Kinda sad really.
post #59 of 166
please ignore, too early in the morning.
post #60 of 166
As a single guy who has been in the dating pool a while, there is definitely truth in that follow-up. I was recently asked out by a woman who then had me pay for the date ($20/person brunch). Seriously? I'm not trying to run some sort of upscale food bank here. Some women are also incredibly focused on their careers to the point where they take themselves out of the dating pool entirely, with or without knowing it. I have a lot less experience with what men other than myself do in terms of dating because I'm not trying to date other men, but I'm sure we screw things up similarly.
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