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Where Have the Good Men Gone - Page 2

post #16 of 166
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Hollywood started the affair in the early 1990s with movies like "Singles," "Reality Bites," "Single White Female" and "Swingers."

Wait, what? Isn't this the movie with Bridget Fonda and the psychotic murdering roommate? WTF does that have to do with lingering childhood?
post #17 of 166
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Originally Posted by caxt View Post
Agreed.

But there is some general truth behind the premise. Take for instance the example of the achieving male in his early 20’s during the colonial period. Many were writing treatises on philosophy, running for political office, innovating new products, or managing multi-national businesses. All of course while raising a family.

To be sure things are different in the modern age, and life spans significantly longer, but I am consistently blown away at the level of achievement pursued by young men in earlier time periods. Levels that do not seem to have carried through in today's world

A perfect example: Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin Franklin? Are you kidding me? He was the preeminent thinker of his time. How could you possible use him as the "perfect example" of a comparatively greater historic trend achievement?
post #18 of 166
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Originally Posted by IUtoSLU View Post
Benjamin Franklin? Are you kidding me? He was the preeminent thinker of his time. How could you possible use him as the "perfect example" of a comparatively greater historic trend achievement?

I use Franklin because of his early life experiences, and how he raised himself up from nothing.

Expecting a life similar to Franklin's for everyone would of course be ridiculous, but earlier on through persistence and natural curiosity he overcame his station. Perhaps less grandiose are the abilities and knowledge of his peers in their late-teens/early-twenties who also achieved what would today be considered monumental successes.

Another example: William James

Who would be a great thinker of our time? Zuckerberg?
post #19 of 166
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Originally Posted by caxt View Post
Who would be a great thinker of our time? Zuckerberg?

Is it even possible for truly great generalist thinkers to exist any more?

There's an exponentially larger amount of information to process and manage that makes the likelihood of another Leonardo Da Vinci or Franklin much less likely.

150 years ago you could know everything there was to know about science, mathematics, philosophy, economics, etc. Still took time, but it was possible. Now it would not be possible for a single individual to read the entire body of work from one of those subjects, let alone understand it.

There's certainly great people, but they are forced to specialize.
post #20 of 166
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Originally Posted by APK View Post
George Will wrote, like, the EXACT same thing for Newsweek a year ago.

Author's heart is in the right place, but I think people need to start letting go that part of true adulthood = married with children.

Exactly. We can't use arbitrary markers to define "true adulthood". I can't tell you how many young thirtysomethings I know who got fucked in the real estate market by buying in the middle of the boom because home ownership was the "grownup thing to do'.
post #21 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by v0rtex View Post
Is it even possible for truly great generalist thinkers to exist any more?

There's an exponentially larger amount of information to process and manage that makes the likelihood of another Leonardo Da Vinci or Franklin much less likely.

150 years ago you could know everything there was to know about science, mathematics, philosophy, economics, etc. Still took time, but it was possible. Now it would not be possible for a single individual to read the entire body of work from one of those subjects, let alone understand it.

There's certainly great people, but they are forced to specialize.

This makes sense and I can accept it.

But it can not account for the state of arrested development that so many young men are living out this very moment.

A side point:
It's the mediocrity that gets to me the most, and that is why I remain so disenchanted with college. Being surrounded by peers who seemingly can't fathom the concept of original thought or creative direction is depressing in the extreme.
post #22 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by caxt View Post
Agreed.

But there is some general truth behind the premise. Take for instance the example of the achieving male in his early 20's during the colonial period. Many were writing treatises on philosophy, running for political office, innovating new products, or managing multi-national businesses. All of course while raising a family.

To be sure things are different in the modern age, and life spans significantly longer, but I am consistently blown away at the level of achievement pursued by young men in earlier time periods. Levels that do not seem to have carried through in today's world

A perfect example: Benjamin Franklin

Well nowadays most jobs require a college degree and what not...
post #23 of 166
This article is ridiculous. I get really pissed off at people who give me shit for not wanting to be married with kids at 25. I don't think this has anything to do with being a good, or bad man. I have different ideas for my life as many younger people do. It is just the evolution of culture. I feel a lot of people are jealous of it.
post #24 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by v0rtex View Post
Is it even possible for truly great generalist thinkers to exist any more?

There's an exponentially larger amount of information to process and manage that makes the likelihood of another Leonardo Da Vinci or Franklin much less likely.

150 years ago you could know everything there was to know about science, mathematics, philosophy, economics, etc. Still took time, but it was possible. Now it would not be possible for a single individual to read the entire body of work from one of those subjects, let alone understand it.

There's certainly great people, but they are forced to specialize.

Definitely agree with this, nowadays it is much harder to become as renaissance man. From what i've noticed, most renaissance men are usually professors or teachers who have time to pursue their interests in this busy world.

Not only this, but it seems that our society is forcing us to specialize, think of how schools and jobs are usually limited one or two majors/subjects. People learn to become engineers and doctors, and nothing outside of what they need for their job. It's almost like society became a huge assembly line. In that way, specializing is also dulling our abilities as critical thinkers.
post #25 of 166
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Originally Posted by Master Milano View Post
... specializing is also dulling our abilities as critical thinkers.
SF reveals this to us every day.
post #26 of 166
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Originally Posted by pvrhye View Post
When she's ragging on Star Wars, bitch has gotta go.

Star Wars is a good series of movies and all, but if it's truly that big of a part of your life maybe she's right and you actually do have some growing up to do.
post #27 of 166
A real man should be able to change a tire, drive a manual transmission, shoot and prep an animal for cooking, grow a beard, and bed the buxom redhead at the end of the bar.

If you can't do those things, buy a Filson bag so you can at least look the part.
post #28 of 166
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Originally Posted by xchen View Post
Star Wars is a good series of movies and all, but if it's truly that big of a part of your life maybe she's right and you actually do have some growing up to do.

+1
post #29 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
What can you achieve in your 20s now except at a start-up maybe? It doesn't help that the boomers are a larger generation and are taking up all the senior spots at companies. It also doesn't help that partnership/senior tracks at large companies have stretched out longer and longer. And dating? Well, you get what you deserve on that front - if you consistently end up with douchebags and skanks, then you should look at the common factor involved in each relationship: you.
Probably the smartest observation of the lot on this thread. I'm older (fortysomething) and I'll be honest, I know a couple women in my social circle I have known since we were teens that have not left high school in terms with their relationships with men.
post #30 of 166
A counterpoint from scriptwriter Tracy McMillan:
Quote:
From the Feb 13, 2011 Huffington Post You want to get married. It's taken a while to admit it. Saying it out loud -- even in your mind -- feels kind of desperate, kind of unfeminist, kind of definitely not you, or at least not any you that you recognize. Because you're hardly like those girls on TLC saying yes to the dress and you would never compete for a man like those poor actress-wannabes on The Bachelor. You've never dreamt of an aqua-blue ring box. Then, something happened. Another birthday, maybe. A breakup. Your brother's wedding. His wife-elect asked you to be a bridesmaid, and suddenly there you were, wondering how in hell you came to be 36-years-old, walking down the aisle wearing something halfway decent from J. Crew that you could totally repurpose with a cute pair of boots and a jean jacket. You started to hate the bride -- she was so effing happy -- and for the first time ever you began to have feelings about the fact that you're not married. You never really cared that much before. But suddenly (it was so sudden) you found yourself wondering... Deep, deep breath... Why you're not married. Well, I know why. How? It basically comes down to this: I've been married three times. Yes, three. To a very nice MBA at 19; a very nice minister's son at 32 (and pregnant); and at 40, to a very nice liar and cheater who was just like my dad, if my dad had gone to Harvard instead of doing multiple stints in federal prison. I was, for some reason, born knowing how to get married. Growing up in foster care is a big part of it. The need for security made me look for very specific traits in the men I dated -- traits it turns out lead to marriage a surprisingly high percentage of the time. Without really trying to, I've become a sort of jailhouse lawyer of relationships -- someone who's had to do so much work on her own case that I can now help you with yours. But I won't lie. The problem is not men, it's you. Sure, there are lame men out there, but they're not really standing in your way. Because the fact is -- if whatever you're doing right now was going to get you married, you'd already have a ring on it. So without further ado, let's look at the top six reasons why you're not married. 1. You're a Bitch. Here's what I mean by bitch. I mean you're angry. You probably don't think you're angry. You think you're super smart, or if you've been to a lot of therapy, that you're setting boundaries. But the truth is you're pissed. At your mom. At the military-industrial complex. At Sarah Palin. And it's scaring men off. The deal is: most men just want to marry someone who is nice to them. I am the mother of a 13-year-old boy, which is like living with the single-cell protozoa version of a husband. Here's what my son wants out of life: macaroni and cheese, a video game, and Kim Kardashian. Have you ever seen Kim Kardashian angry? I didn't think so. You've seen Kim Kardashian smile, wiggle, and make a sex tape. Female anger terrifies men. I know it seems unfair that you have to work around a man's fear and insecurity in order to get married -- but actually, it's perfect, since working around a man's fear and insecurity is big part of what you'll be doing as a wife. 2. You're Shallow. When it comes to choosing a husband, only one thing really, truly matters: character. So it stands to reason that a man's character should be at the top of the list of things you are looking for, right? But if you're not married, I already know it isn't. Because if you were looking for a man of character, you would have found one by now. Men of character are, by definition, willing to commit. Instead, you are looking for someone tall. Or rich. Or someone who knows what an Eames chair is. Unfortunately, this is not the thinking of a wife. This is the thinking of a teenaged girl. And men of character do not want to marry teenaged girls. Because teenage girls are never happy. And they never feel like cooking, either. 3. You're a Slut. Hooking up with some guy in a hot tub on a rooftop is fine for the ladies of Jersey Shore -- but they're not trying to get married. You are. Which means, unfortunately, that if you're having sex outside committed relationships, you will have to stop. Why? Because past a certain age, casual sex is like recreational heroin -- it doesn't stay recreational for long. That's due in part to this thing called oxytocin -- a bonding hormone that is released when a woman a) nurses her baby and b) has an orgasm -- that will totally mess up your casual-sex game. It's why you can be f**k-buddying with some dude who isn't even all that great and the next thing you know, you're totally strung out on him. And you have no idea how it happened. Oxytocin, that's how it happened. And since nature can't discriminate between marriage material and Charlie Sheen, you're going to have to start being way more selective than you are right now. 4. You're a Liar. It usually goes something like this: you meet a guy who is cute and likes you, but he's not really available for a relationship. He has some condition that absolutely precludes his availability, like he's married, or he gets around town on a skateboard. Or maybe he just comes right out and says something cryptic and open to interpretation like, "I'm not really available for a relationship right now." You know if you tell him the truth -- that you're ready for marriage -- he will stop calling. Usually that day. And you don't want that. So you just tell him how perfect this is because you only want to have sex for fun! You love having fun sex! And you don't want to get in a relationship at all! You swear! About ten minutes later, the oxytocin kicks in. You start wanting more. But you don't tell him that. That's your secret -- just between you and 22,000 of your closest girlfriends. Instead, you hang around, having sex with him, waiting for him to figure out that he can't live without you. I have news: he will never "figure" this out. He already knows he can live without you just fine. And so do you. Or you wouldn't be lying to him in the first place. 5. You're Selfish. If you're not married, chances are you think a lot about you. You think about your thighs, your outfits, your naso-labial folds. You think about your career, or if you don't have one, you think about doing yoga teacher training. Sometimes you think about how marrying a wealthy guy -- or at least a guy with a really, really good job -- would solve all your problems. Howevs, a good wife, even a halfway decent one, does not spend most of her day thinking about herself. She has too much s**t to do, especially after having kids. This is why you see a lot of celebrity women getting husbands after they adopt. The kids put the woman on notice: Bitch, hello! It's not all about you anymore! After a year or two of thinking about someone other than herself, suddenly, Brad Pitt or Harrison Ford comes along and decides to significantly other her. Which is also to say -- if what you really want is a baby, go get you one. Your husband will be along shortly. Motherhood has a way of weeding out the lotharios. 6. You're Not Good Enough. Oh, I don't think that. You do. I can tell because you're not looking for a partner who is your equal. No, you want someone better than you are: better looking, better family, better job. Here is what you need to know: You are enough right this minute. Period. Not understanding this is a major obstacle to getting married, since women who don't know their own worth make terrible wives. Why? You can fake it for a while, but ultimately you won't love your spouse any better than you love yourself. Smart men know this. I see this at my son's artsy, progressive school. Of 183 kids, maybe six have moms who are as cute as you're trying to be. They're attractive, sure. They're just not objects. Their husbands (wisely) chose them for their character, not their cup size. Alright, so that's the bad news. The good news is that I believe every woman who wants to can find a great partner. You're just going to need to get rid of the idea that marriage will make you happy. It won't. Once the initial high wears off, you'll just be you, except with twice as much laundry. Because ultimately, marriage is not about getting something -- it's about giving it. Strangely, men understand this more than we do. Probably because for them marriage involves sacrificing their most treasured possession -- a free-agent penis -- and for us, it's the culmination of a princess fantasy so universal, it built Disneyland. The bottom line is that marriage is just a long-term opportunity to practice loving someone even when they don't deserve it. Because most of the time, your messy, farting, macaroni-and-cheese eating man will not be doing what you want him to. But as you give him love anyway -- because you have made up your mind to transform yourself into a person who is practicing being kind, deep, virtuous, truthful, giving, and most of all, accepting of your own dear self -- you will find that you will experience the very thing you wanted all along: Love. Tracy McMillan is a TV writer whose credits include Mad Men and The United States of Tara. Her memoir I Love You and I'm Leaving You Anyway is now available in paperback from Harper Collins/It Books. She lives in Los Angeles with her 13-year-old son. Follow her on Twitter.
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