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Viberg Boots - Page 1034

post #15496 of 19313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raneleigh View Post


I respectfully disagree.  It's all in how it's managed here way before Viberg is even involved.  If we were given a set of strict parameters to work within (i.e. - types of leather available, types of soles, minimum number of eyelets, etc.), then 98 percent of the issues that occurred last time would evaporate.  I was as confused as the next guy as to what we could and couldn't do and I know this stuff!  There was some turmoil over cat's paw heels and soles for example, because no one knew precisely what was and wasn't possible.  Turns out the heels were available but the soles weren't.  Who knew??  I can tell you that there was some misunderstanding and upset before this came to light though.

What I loved about the last GMTO was that Fok listed some or all of the new leathers.  That was great because it gave us something to work with!  The end result was that ALL of the final builds used one of the leathers he listed despite the fact that there were certainly many other options not listed.  Obviously he probably couldn't list every leather Viberg has in stock (or maybe he could, I don't know), but the point is...if you know what you have to work with, then you can build on that and most of the debate over it becomes a non-issue.  7 eyelets minimum folks...that's what you have to work with...end of debate!

As far as personal attacks on Brett...I don't think most of us even know him, but I'm guessing he has a thicker skin than to get upset over some random comments.  I certainly can't imagine he would condemn the entire group here over a few errant opinions.  I don't care how great the company, you will ALWAYS have criticisms of various sorts to bear.  It's unreasonable to think that only nice things will ever be said about you or your brand.  You are right though...SF is a tiny client.  But it's a core group of extreme enthusiasts who at the grassroots level can offer valuable feedback for the brand.  I work in a business where you have to pay a high price tag for the kind of feedback they get for free here.  You garner what you want from it and discard the rest, what's so difficult about that?

I don't know guys, I just feel like we can manage this to everyone's advantage.  Comments like, "this thread has gone full Toj x Alden" is just negative and promotes more negativity.  How about...this thread is great because SF is the one place we can all share our passion for the brand!  That means there will be opinions voiced, so be prepared for passionate opinions that may be in support of a Viberg decision and some that may not be.  But the common denominator is that we all fucking love Viberg and that's why we are here!!!

Man your comments are spot on.

We may be a small client in terms of SF sales but we are a large group of the full market (especially if you count lurkers). There are times when Viberg drops a shell boot with 24 pairs and you can count 18 of their owners right here on this thread. I myself get most of the leads on new boots from this thread. Could I look elsewhere? Probably, but this is a easy virtual Mecca of information.
post #15497 of 19313
Inverallan was never affiliated etc. either, they closed MTM shortly after their email was posted onto SF and it was given as an indirect reason. You can read the thread it pretty evident why.

Whether or not Viberg is affiliated of not or Brett has thick skin isn't important, it's so large it comes up on page 2 on google, when you google Viberg. So minute unreasonable complaints about things that are essentially non problems, will be some of the first things new customers see, so it can and probably already has hurt their sales to some degree. So the sort of pointless moaning about .001 inch errors is a branding nightmare and I would personally try to have it shut down if it was my firm.

I followed this thread prior to the group buys and them "blowing up" and honestly I preferred it back then, no negativity at all.
post #15498 of 19313
Well said Raneleigh.
I hope this GMTO does happen again. I want to see that A game you mentioned in the previous post.
post #15499 of 19313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raneleigh View Post

 

 I don't care how great the company, you will ALWAYS have criticisms of various sorts to bear.  It's unreasonable to expect that only nice things will ever be said about you or your brand.  You are right...SF is a tiny client.  But it's a core group of extreme enthusiasts who at the grassroots level can offer valuable feedback for the brand.  I work in a business where you have to pay a high price tag for the kind of feedback they get for free here.  You garner what you want from it and discard the rest, what's so difficult about that?

 Couldn't agree more, when businesses study their products in the market place they place extreme value on customer feedback.  As has been mentioned market research is a business unto itself that is a service sold to manufacturers.  If I were to look at IG and see 715 "likes" on their latest release and how "Jelly" they are about it or "I dare you to find a better boot" and then to see 3 pairs have been sold when things used to sell out immediately I might want to know why.

post #15500 of 19313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Find Finn View Post

Inverallan was never affiliated etc. either, they closed MTM shortly after their email was posted onto SF and it was given as an indirect reason. You can read the thread it pretty evident why.

Whether or not Viberg is affiliated of not or Brett has thick skin isn't important, it's so large it comes up on page 2 on google, when you google Viberg. So minute unreasonable complaints about things that are essentially non problems, will be some of the first things new customers see, so it can and probably already has hurt their sales to some degree. So the sort of pointless moaning about .001 inch errors is a branding nightmare and I would personally try to have it shut down if it was my firm.

I followed this thread prior to the group buys and them "blowing up" and honestly I preferred it back then, no negativity at all.


You are emphasizing my point exactly...managing it better here by giving us parameters to work within will alleviate all the drama and the negative posts.  Canceling the SF GMTO program isn't the answer, revising the process is.  Page 2 on Google will then show how much we all love the boots that WE had a hand in creating, further perpetuating a passion for the brand.  Better to overwhelm the negative voice than attempt to bury it.

 

The only reason Brett is part of the discussion is because it was suggested that he was tired of the bickering.  Fair enough!  Let's stop bickering beginning right now.  Let's talk about how we can make it better instead of how much better it used to be back in the day!

post #15501 of 19313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Find Finn View Post

Inverallan was never affiliated etc. either, they closed MTM shortly after their email was posted onto SF and it was given as an indirect reason. You can read the thread it pretty evident why.

Whether or not Viberg is affiliated of not or Brett has thick skin isn't important, it's so large it comes up on page 2 on google, when you google Viberg. So minute unreasonable complaints about things that are essentially non problems, will be some of the first things new customers see, so it can and probably already has hurt their sales to some degree. So the sort of pointless moaning about .001 inch errors is a branding nightmare and I would personally try to have it shut down if it was my firm.

I followed this thread prior to the group buys and them "blowing up" and honestly I preferred it back then, no negativity at all.

I am not sure what your point is here.

 

You can't shut down public opinion, if you mean to shut down the GMTO program then yes they can, and that is their choice.  I think the majority of the reaction here has nothing to do with GMTO or whether it will continue. Human beings by nature react poorly to change. The collective is passionate about the brand and wants to see it do well, I do not read any ill will in any of the posts even the ones that could be deemed negative.

 

If they stop doing the GMTO It will be disappointing but not surprising. The company is making a lot of changes and they are in a growth stage so focusing valuable resources becomes more important and maybe GMTO doesnt fit that bill.  But if you look at it from FOK's perspective and his suggestions he will operate more like a retailer with a great deal of customer input.  I think that is a win for everyone and will produce some very nice looking boots.

 

There is no authenticity in a world where everything is loved or hated.

post #15502 of 19313
Of course you can, Fok can close and hide the thread, which makes all the bickering go away. There's a fineline between constructive criticisms and bickering, no company wants the later.

All Vibergs other clients can give the same feedback based on their customers feedback, so SF isn't a special flower and the group buys are probably less than VMC orders a month and they don't even have an online presence.

Everyone who works with sales knows if you can't shift a product, its due to pricing, so there's no rocket science in that. I said years ago that they were pushing the point where the product becomes too expensive for the vast majority of their buyers, so it's not anything new.
post #15503 of 19313

Fok, I propose the following:

 

If we are permitted future GMTO's, then you create a list of available options based on your initial conversations with Brett, et al.  Designs (based on what we've seen from previous offerings, previous GMTO's, previous prototypes, etc.) are an open playing field.  But the types of leathers available, the types of soles and everything from the type of eyelet and the minimum number permitted to the types of laces are pre-established.  Designs are created and you stack them up for voting.  If there are elements that require a change to be permissible, you alone can consult with the original designer and make the determination about what change(s) to make.  This will eliminate 200 cooks from the kitchen.  Then we all vote on them as in the past...stage one, elimination, stage two, elimination, final voting.

 

I think the inherent difficulty in a representative democracy is that it will fall to the representative(s) to garner a consensus, which is essentially like wrangling cats.  I propose a much simpler democracy...design within set parameters, designer gets to pick options (up to them if they want to ask for other opinions) and make final revision(s), you approve and post to the list for voting.  This will eliminate all the petty bickering and protect the creative vision of the original designer, with oversight and final approval by you.

post #15504 of 19313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Find Finn View Post

Of course you can, Fok can close and hide the thread, which makes all the bickering go away. There's a fineline between constructive criticisms and bickering, no company wants the later

I don't want to derail the thread away from Viberg, but SF exists for this very reason (as does reddit & countless others) so shutting down a thread for honest conversation would be contrary to their existence. Their business model and yes it is a business, is for people to talk about such things.I don't know vmc's throughput nor do I know the sf gmto but, I'd be surprised if an individual retailer can provide the instantaneous feedback of hundreds of people on a dedicated Internet forum.

Im doing my best to respect FOK's point about avoiding comments that lack adequate knowledge or include insinuation or speculation to a small business'or individual's motivations. So I will leave it at this:



I call it pajamas by viberg in the pale darkness of winter.
post #15505 of 19313
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYDRH View Post



I call it pajamas by viberg in the pale darkness of winter.

 

 I LOVE it!  Casual 1800's meets contemporary street!

post #15506 of 19313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahuna75 View Post

Once we got told the rules we played inside if them. Which is perfectly fine and we came up with cool builds.

Last time a lot if crap happened from finding out we could not do stitchdown on some leathers to different soles etc.

This time should be pretty easy...here is the leathers for stitchdown, here is the leathers for gyw...here are the styles available...and away we go.

It's an iterative process, is the issue. A flowchart like you describe is, possibly for the better, not realistic because the leathers are changing constantly, Brett is constantly innovating, etc...

Realistically, what I outlined already is a best case scenario. I don't know how to make that more clear.
post #15507 of 19313
I like and appreciate Ranleigh's suggestions, comments, and perspectives on this topic.
Edited by bry2000 - 2/7/16 at 10:47am
post #15508 of 19313
Doesn't it seem that many or all of the cool designs(lasts, leather and soles) that are created with the GMTOs, Viberg eventually sells to the masses?
post #15509 of 19313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raneleigh View Post

Fok, I propose the following:

If we are permitted future GMTO's, then you create a list of available options based on your initial conversations with Brett, et al.  Designs (based on what we've seen from previous offerings, previous GMTO's, previous prototypes, etc.) are an open playing field.  But the types of leathers available, the types of soles and everything from the type of eyelet and the minimum number permitted to the types of laces are pre-established.  Designs are created and you stack them up for voting.  If there are elements that require a change to be permissible, you alone can consult with the original designer and make the determination about what change(s) to make.  This will eliminate 200 cooks from the kitchen.  Then we all vote on them as in the past...stage one, elimination, stage two, elimination, final voting.

I think the inherent difficulty in a representative democracy is that it will fall to the representative(s) to garner a consensus, which is essentially like wrangling cats.  I propose a much simpler democracy...design within set parameters, designer gets to pick options (up to them if they want to ask for other opinions) and make final revision(s), you approve and post to the list for voting.  This will eliminate all the petty bickering and protect the creative vision of the original designer, with oversight and final approval by you.

I think that in order to avoid any hurt feelings or protracted discussions about things that will never happen, I'd have to okay the top 10 or so makeups with Brett BEFORE any rounds of elimination. There would be changes and straight up eliminations. The implicit explanation would be simply "this is/is not where Viberg wants to go." We are not a tiny stockist, but we are a pita. This program is a personal favor, unique amongst stockists, and we don't have a right to it. So let's keep that in perspective before anyone posts about how much value we bring, etc... or any argument that suggests that we deserve special treatment.

I am going to need a buy in to this process from you guys to credibly go to Brett and Guy with this proposal. They may still say no. Otherwise, we'd just act as a regular stockist, with some informal consultation. Or we get nothing. Those are the real options on the table, so no need to complain about them, unless you just want to explode the ship for everyone else.

Cheers,

Fok.

PS. A flowchart list is not possible. We can make a best guess, but don't be shocked if a makeup that is technically okay us changed or even 86ed. Aesthetic consideration s cannot be easily formalized.
post #15510 of 19313
I think that's fair Fok, totally on board with your plan.
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