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self defense techniques to counter, prevent neck tie attacks - Page 2

post #16 of 60
2/3/11 at 1:15am
If he is pulling on your tie downward then you go down in the direction of the force and with the side of your fist take out his knee and/or go to the groin. If he is pulling up, don't grab the tie, grab one of his fingers on the tie and break it off. He will let go of the tie. Then take out his knee as described above or with your foot. Once you have incapacitated him you run as fast as you can in another direction then drop to your knees and thank God you are still alive.
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post #17 of 60
2/3/11 at 1:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bringusingoodale View Post
I am not "fantasizing about violence." Either everyone responding has lived a sheltered life or they are just being (understandably) tongue-in-cheek about such a topic, which I think is the case.

I am familiar with the palm technique. But even in your tongue-in-cheek post, you point out how in such a neck tie attack you might be forced into an awkward position, leading to wild kicking "at the knees or groin." The point of learning techniques, as I understand it, is to establish control on your part, not fall into panic attack mode.

I was not being tongue-in-cheek. I have military law enforcement experience as well as martial arts training. (Ships Self Defense Force, Shore Patrol, and Boarding team. 8 Years USCG.) A controlled strike to the shins (combined with a quick move forward to throw the attacker off balance) is a good defense against a person who is already too close for safety. That said, if you are carrying a (properly permitted) concealed weapon it will be illegal for you to be in a drinking establishment in most if not all states. In addition, a firearm is not recommended for close quarters fighting as there is a very great risk that you will lose control of it and be injured yourself. In addition, in court it will generally be ruled as excessive force if used against an unarmed assailant.

But we are probably veering way too much off-topic for Mens Clothing.

Situational awareness is the best defense against crime in most neighborhoods.
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post #18 of 60
2/3/11 at 1:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bringusingoodale View Post
What? This makes no sense. So you get your wallet stolen, you report it and the officer tells you "you should have left your wallet at home..." Some things can't be avoided, hence the need to learn some counter measures.

Hah!

Sorry, mate.

Just horsing around.

Still stand by what I stated earlier - Check out Martial Talk or TPI.

On a more serious note?

The scenario you presented indicates that a series of defensive failures took place.

1) Failure to survey the environment and pick up potential threats: Ego-based matches as opposed to predatory attacks rarely happen in a vacuum. Chances are the guy would have been giving off aggressive vibes long before the actual physical violence was executed. Reading the situation, and pinging him as a potential bad guy might have given the defender an edge.

2) Failure to de-escalate: Did the defender try to talk down the aggressor, or did he merely participate in the exchange so as not to lose face in front of his mates.

2) Failure to manage distance: How the heck did the aggressor get close enough to grab the defender's tie?

Once the tie is grabbed however, I'd close and barrage with elbows, hooks, knees, ax hands and other nasty close-in weapons. Maybe takedown and move to positional dominance. This, of course, necessitates some measure of CQB skills and some Jits (I train Kenpo 5.0).

The tie is a leverage point, nothing more. Go with the grab and clang him. You're already in the fight.

CEK out
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post #19 of 60
2/3/11 at 1:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudhiker View Post
I was not being tongue-in-cheek. I have military law enforcement experience as well as martial arts training. (Ships Self Defense Force, Shore Patrol, and Boarding team. 8 Years USCG.) A controlled strike to the shins (combined with a quick move forward to throw the attacker off balance) is a good defense against a person who is already too close for safety. That said, if you are carrying a (properly permitted) concealed weapon it will be illegal for you to be in a drinking establishment in most if not all states. In addition, a firearm is not recommended for close quarters fighting as there is a very great risk that you will lose control of it and be injured yourself. In addition, in court it will generally be ruled as excessive force if used against an unarmed assailant.

But we are probably veering way too much off-topic for Mens Clothing.

Situational awareness is the best defense against crime in most neighborhoods.

What he said.

Especially the last line.

Anyway, each of my Drakes ties has been customised with a hidden Taser device that will drop an attacker at five paces with unerring ease.
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post #20 of 60
2/3/11 at 1:40am
I train in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Krav Maga (Israeli self-defense martial art).

Probably the most important thing about this situation is that the tie pull isn't a huge threat. It would take quite a long time for it to actually choke you (albeit it could be uncomfortable). If you're really worried about this, practice getting choked so that you won't panic in the situation, and then instead of instinctively grabbing at the neck you'll be able to quickly counterattack with something like an elbow, knee to the stomach or groin (or if you really want to get into it, then a judo throw followed by a dominant position on the ground to subdue him without any actual injury.
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post #21 of 60
2/3/11 at 2:04am
A true gentleman always carry a cane and knows how to use it. DUUUUUH.
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post #22 of 60
2/3/11 at 2:12am
Easy -- bow ties.
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post #23 of 60
2/3/11 at 2:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twotone View Post
Easy -- bow ties.

problem solved


but seriously, if it's the kind of place where someone might grab your tie and try to beat you up because of something you said about some grown men in ridiculously excessive body armour throwing a pig's bladder around, it's probably the kind of place where you shouldn't be wearing a tie.



Also, watch a real man's game


Rugby
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post #24 of 60
2/3/11 at 2:38am
I train in BJJ and Kickboxing, participated in many San shou matches as well as fought MMA in California in the early 2000s, worked the door at a club, and have taught self-defense classes, and I'd like to respond to this serious, but it's just so unlikely that it's veered directly into stupid. I could see this scenario, say 80 years ago. But who wears a necktie to anyplace a fight is likely to break out? What could possibly precipitate that, would you have to order the last of the duck orange out from under the dude. Maybe he called you knave?

To be really serious though, unless the guy really knows what he is doing, grabbing the tie is just going to tie up his hand, or he is using it as leverage so that he can punch you in the face.

My automatic reaction has been to use close range weapons, and then use a simple deadlift takedown to drop him on his back, then get up again and kick and stomp him.

On the other hand, if you are up against a really skilled BJJ practitioner, you could be screwed. I friend of mine, a high level brown belt, lapel choked me using my tee shirt, in a demonstration, and I swear, I barely had time to tap. I would estimate that it would have taken three seconds for me. If I'd been breathing heavily, they would probably have had to bring out the salts. In this case, having a nice, thick, necktie might actually be to your advantage. Competition gis have extra thick lapels precisely because it makes lapel chokes a whole lot harder.
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post #25 of 60
2/3/11 at 2:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
I train in BJJ and Kickboxing, participated in many San shou matches as well as fought MMA in California in the early 2000s, worked the door at a club, and have taught self-defense classes, and I'd like to respond to this serious, but it's just so unlikely that it's veered directly into stupid.

Remind me not to troll SF on your watch. Ever.
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post #26 of 60
2/3/11 at 3:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LatinStyleLover View Post
...
Thanks for your serious insight. I appreciate it.

Some things remain a bit too vague for my liking as in "grab one of his fingers on the tie and break it off" I am not sure this is possible, given that if one is grabbing a tie, a piece of cloth mind you, he probably has a pretty damn good grip on it and a near closed clenched fist of sorts.

As for "taking out knees" I think the groin is better suited for the novice attempting to escape from danger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudhiker View Post
...

Thanks for you input, but I already know not to play with guns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdEyedPugilist View Post
...

Thanks for this. I like how you point out that the tie-grab is just leverage and that the attackers hands will not be free. This is something worth keeping in mind for any quick counter strike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielvh View Post
...

Again, this is good. Thanks. This reaffirms that the tie-grab shouldn't scare me so much. Though, I don't know how to go about practicing being choked

Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
...

Good points again on how the attackers hands are tied up and the grab isn't more than leverage hold. You bring up something I never even considered in my initial post. I was merely referring to the tie being grabbed as leverage as you and others have pointed out, to pull me down or any direction. You point out how the tie can be used to choke me as in wrapping the tie around my neck. This brings out another problem I never thought of. I assume the basic instinct to just punch at someone remains, though I hope the tie won't be a real threat for choking me.

Good stuff from people who seem to be knowledgeable. Just want to say that I am not wearing ties to dive bars and rowdy places. I am a little surprised that people assume one must be in some hell hole danger place to think that an attack can occur.
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post #27 of 60
2/3/11 at 3:58am
Wear a tie bar so it's not dangling out for someone to grab
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post #28 of 60
2/3/11 at 3:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bringusingoodale View Post
Good stuff from people who seem to be knowledgeable. Just want to say that I am not wearing ties to dive bars and rowdy places. I am a little surprised that people assume one must be in some hell hole danger place to think that an attack can occur.

Fights tend to break out in either douchey places full of partying finance types, guys in stripey shirts, and other masters of the universe, and at bars in rougher neighbourhoods. In the douchey places, if you get into a fight, it's most likely because you wanted to. In the other places, it could be because you got caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. A friend and I used to go to hiphop clubs regularly, in the shadier parts of Hollywood. We always made it a point to leave shortly after midnight, when guys who were being shot down by girls all night start to get frustrated, and people get a little too drunk and start throwing out gang signs. Time to hit up a taco truck and call it a night.

There was a fight one time in the bar section of "Chez Henri" in Cambridge MA. It was between 2 drunk yuppies, was broken up by 2 of the hostesses (who probably weighed a total of 250 lbs, combined), and at no time was anyone in danger of anything other than breaking a nail/sweat.
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post #29 of 60
2/3/11 at 4:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
lapel choked me using my tee shirt, in a demonstration, and I swear, I barely had time to tap.

I refuse to believe. No way!
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post #30 of 60
2/3/11 at 5:14am
It such situations my policy is to distract them with my colorful socks and/or pocket square.
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