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RLBL-made in China? - Page 6

post #76 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raralith View Post
My grand parents were ludicriously rich, but they had all their land and wealth taken from them and had to leave to Taiwan. .

地主
i kid
post #77 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALFAMALE View Post
Thats a good point, but then I look at all the stuff I have thats made in china and realize how shitty and cheap it is.

textile or other things? all your electronics are assembled in china one way or another (specific component might be made in China/Japan/Taiwan/Singapore/South Korea/Malaysia, etc.). Looks like they have the ability to turn out decent electronics and industrial equipment, just whether they want to or not (or what the ordering company wants and how hard they inspect). Clothe, they probably can do the same, up to a point.

I mean they could make beautiful china and textile 200 years ago, some tradition are lost, but would seem odd if they can never be picked up again. As to making things with passion..., that happens more with at the engineering rank than the other end (i.e. the guy who does engineer work at least had more fun than the guy who sew 100 button a day for example). There are some always some craftsman if you look hard enough, 1.2 billion people give you a lot possibility even just by sheer luck.
post #78 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raralith View Post
The middle class is practically not expanding, and while it is slowly, extremely slowly, by the time you'll see the "equality" we have in America, I'm sure the ice caps would be melted down. Wealth equality in the communist days isn't really wealth equality either. My grand parents were ludicriously rich, but they had all their land and wealth taken from them and had to leave to Taiwan. That time wealth and luxury was more set along from political party lines so it wasn't so much a wealth inequality as "those that do and those that don't." And there certainly has been a huge influx of wealth in China, absolutely huge, but it's all going to the top. I know in America we talk about the "trickle down effect" where spending from the rich eventually help the poor, but that really isn't the in China, case in my opinion.

I think I do see China wealth distribution. I never worked in China, but have been there almost every other year since 1991 from Xinjiang to all the major cities. The trick down might not be fair, but the progress for everyone is certainly there. There are expanding middle class in Shanghai/Beijing for sure, I would say the same to second tier cities. Should they have gotten more out of this great leap? Probably, but I certainly wouldn't call it barely expanding (of course that might also depends on your definition of middle class, the way English sees it, the way American sees it, or the way Asia sees it).

p.s. your family came after 1949 or one of those left later by get to Hong Kong first
post #79 of 113
From reading these posts, it seems to me that the "Made in China" debate is not one of clothing quality. It is more of social/corporate responsibility issue.

Is it really luxury if a Chinese child, sold by his/her parents into labor is making your cashmere sweater? Is it really luxury if Ralph Lauren makes billions of dollars in profits every quarter using suppliers without fair labor or environmental standards? I understand that China is currently in an industrial revolution, a phase the United States, underwent 100 years ago. However, when fair labor standards and environmental regulations improve in China, as they did in the United States over the past 100 years, manufacturing will move to Vietnam and other Asian countries- it has already happened. In my opinion, it is result, of luxury brands appealing to the middle class masses, in other words, the democratization of luxury, a well known strategy taken up by the luxury consortia such as LVMH.
post #80 of 113
In case anyone's interested, here's Scott Sternberg (BoO) explaining why some of his cashmere sweaters are made in China:

Quote:
The suits are made at Martin Greenfield Clothiers, a 100+ year old hand-tailoring factory in Bushwick, New York. The shirts are cut, sewn, washed/dyed, etc. in Los Angeles. The ties are cut and hand-rolled in Manhattan. Some sweaters are made in Scotland at an old factory in Hawick – these are under the Glenmac label, an old brand from the 60s and 70s which is super expensive.

Other sweaters are made in various places – Peru, China, Japan, depending on who has the best resources (for example, Chinese cashmere can be superior depending on the type of sweater, so we’ll make those sweaters there – we do so not to save money or become part of the evil Empire but because it’s the best solution for a given product). Sperry’s are made in China, where they make all of their product, but usually in the sample rooms as the quantities are relatively small for them.


source:http://www.selectism.com/news/2009/1...-of-outsiders/
post #81 of 113
Finally, a worthwhile post. Thanks kwoyeu.
post #82 of 113
You're welcome matt.
post #83 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutandSew View Post
I've read through all of the replies and I haven't found one that mentions the main reason why so many knits are coming out of China: the machinery. Most knits these days are machine made, even quality ones. There are some really advanced machines that can knit entire garments. The term for this is "fully fashioned" knitwear. The thing is that these machines are EXPENSIVE and take up A LOT of space. The knitwear industry in New York has pretty much been obliterated because of the cost of the machines, especially the need to upgrade them every so often, and the space needed to house them due to high rent and high capital requirements in order to purchase enough knitting machines (they cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per machine) to be able to produce enough to fill orders. The knitting factories in china, on the other hand, have the financing to buy a whole slew of machines, as well as the space to store them. A lot of the time, the technicians who are trained to use these machines just input a bunch of numbers onto a keypad and viola, you have a sweater 15-20 min. later, or longer, depending on the complexity of the knit. Yes, the machines are computerized and can usually do pretty much anything imagineable! Seriously guys, most of the knits in Scotland and Italy are probably machine made too. It's usually the chunky sweaters and such that are "hand knit". Anything that does not specifically say "hand knitted" is most likely machine made. Think about that for a minute especially with regards to the origin of manufacture. The big brands are the ones who purchase the yarn and tell the manufacturers, "here you go, use this yarn that we sourced from abc....to make this v-neck....and I don't want to pay more than xyz dollars per unit for it".
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcissism View Post
From reading these posts, it seems to me that the "Made in China" debate is not one of clothing quality. It is more of social/corporate responsibility issue. Is it really luxury if a Chinese child, sold by his/her parents into labor is making your cashmere sweater? Is it really luxury if Ralph Lauren makes billions of dollars in profits every quarter using suppliers without fair labor or environmental standards?I understand that China is currently in an industrial revolution, a phase the United States, underwent 100 years ago. However, when fair labor standards and environmental regulations improve in China, as they did in the United States over the past 100 years, manufacturing will move to Vietnam and other Asian countries- it has already happened. In my opinion, it is result, of luxury brands appealing to the middle class masses, in other words, the democratization of luxury, a well known strategy taken up by the luxury consortia such as LVMH.
How do these 2 things jive? Are they training the child labourers to operate the high tech machinery? I suppose their smaller fingers may be able to more nimbly manipulate the keyboards...
post #84 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by academe View Post
How do these 2 things jive? Are they training the child labourers to operate the high tech machinery? I suppose their smaller fingers may be able to more nimbly manipulate the keyboards...

They don't jive because the whole child labour thing is not rampant in the better manufacturing facilities. I have no doubt it does exists in some real hellholes, but it's not as big a problem as many people want to believe. There may be young men and women working the machines, but most manufacturers are not stupid....they know that doing something like hiring a minor could seriously turn off businesses coming to them with work - it's a liability and PR nightmare just waiting to happen...corporate brands are profit driven, yes, but they're not that stupid either. It's one thing to say that the working conditions aren't great or that the pay is measley compared to Western standards, but saying that there is a huge problem in China with regards to child labour is utter BS - it catches people's attention so it is thrown around carelessly imo. I can't say the same thing for India or Bangladesh, or other countries where the level of poverty and destitution is significantly higher though. The thing is, most of us here don't really know shit about what goes on in the factories. It's all mostly opinions tinged with bias, and hear say. I've had the good fortune to see some places while in the industry so at least I have a slightly more informed view. I haven't seen everything though, but I never claimed to know everything, and I did say that I have no doubt child labour does exist in some pockets of the country.
post #85 of 113
Well the child labor thing was just an example, but it is existent in China. Peasants do sell their children to suppliers of clothing brands, but again it is existent and I was just using it as an example. What cannot be disputed is that the suppliers to these large brands (ex. Ralph Lauren) run factories that run 24/7. Workers often work more than 10 hr days and live on the grounds of the factory, in small dormitory style rooms in factory owned buildings. I think these manufacturing complexes are referred to as "campuses". So, many of the people working in these factories do not live great lives. So is this luxury to you?
post #86 of 113
^ When the alternative is sitting in your own filth in a countryside village in rural China - yes. Your naivete is really starting to grate, it's like you forget that it is precisely this demand for stuff made in China that lifts tons of Chinese out of poverty, and you seem hell-bent on comparing them to some theoretical perfect factory in which the primary concern is the welfare of the workers. Their wages are rising every day, and guess what - you're probably going to be the same asshole who then moves on to cheaper brands of whatever the moment the price tags in your supermarket start hurting. Or starts selling his stock of XYZ manufacturer the moment the next quarterly results are released and guess what - growth didn't meet analyst expectations. Then the (US-based) corporations adapt to your choices, move out of China, and on to the next undeveloped country to start the cycle all over again. It's happened to Mauritius, to Singapore, to Hong Kong, to...
post #87 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutandSew View Post
They don't jive because the whole child labour thing is not rampant in the better manufacturing facilities. I have no doubt it does exists in some real hellholes, but it's not as big a problem as many people want to believe. There may be young men and women working the machines, but most manufacturers are not stupid....they know that doing something like hiring a minor could seriously turn off businesses coming to them with work - it's a liability and PR nightmare just waiting to happen...corporate brands are profit driven, yes, but they're not that stupid either. It's one thing to say that the working conditions aren't great or that the pay is measley compared to Western standards, but saying that there is a huge problem in China with regards to child labour is utter BS - it catches people's attention so it is thrown around carelessly imo. I can't say the same thing for India or Bangladesh, or other countries where the level of poverty and destitution is significantly higher though. The thing is, most of us here don't really know shit about what goes on in the factories. It's all mostly opinions tinged with bias, and hear say. I've had the good fortune to see some places while in the industry so at least I have a slightly more informed view. I haven't seen everything though, but I never claimed to know everything, and I did say that I have no doubt child labour does exist in some pockets of the country.
We're on the same page on this one; this is what I was trying to indicate with my little bit of snark.
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcissism View Post
Well the child labor thing was just an example, but it is existent in China. Peasants do sell their children to suppliers of clothing brands, but again it is existent and I was just using it as an example. What cannot be disputed is that the suppliers to these large brands (ex. Ralph Lauren) run factories that run 24/7. Workers often work more than 10 hr days and live on the grounds of the factory, in small dormitory style rooms in factory owned buildings. I think these manufacturing complexes are referred to as "campuses". So, many of the people working in these factories do not live great lives. So is this luxury to you?
And the migrant workers in (illegal, probably mafia-run) sweatshops in Italy aren't labouring under similar conditions? Or sweatshops in LA? Worker welfare is really an extension of corporate responsibility, and the focus/critique should be on multinational companies (and on corporate governance) as much as it should be on the countries themselves. Why pick on China when Italy and the US can't get their own houses in order? Regarding 10 hour work days; I would like to suggest that perceptions of what constitute "reasonable working hours" varies significantly from one country to another, so your suggestion that "long hours in China = bad" is really a red herring. In many industrialised Asian countries (e.g. Singapore, Japan, HK), the majority of working people work for much longer hours than they do in the US/Europe. Many friends/family in Asia (e.g. Singapore, Hong Kong) for example typically work 10 hour days, and do so voluntarily. What irritated me about your post (and other like-minded posts by other members) is the single-minded determination to ignore other data/information, and simply sprout politically correct truisms that may not have as much basis in fact than they did say 15-20 years ago. We've had several members here, with experience of working in China or insider knowledge of the garment manufacturing process, explain how fabrication of garments (including knitwear) is an automated, mechanised, industrialised process, and yet you still insist that these garments are hand-sewn by child labourers sold into slavery by their parents?? Did you not spend the time reading any of the other posts in the thread?
post #88 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantisocrat View Post
Hermes was the first to see the phenomenon just like the two guys at Goldman during the sub-prime housing mess, and made a profit.
Louis Vuitton opened a store in 1978 (5 boutiques inside department stores in march, 1 actual store in osaka in september) same year as Hermes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raralith View Post
I honestly can't say I can agree with that from the experience, albiet not lifetime, I have in China and Taiwan in regardless of why higher end goods are more expensive. My main reason is that there is a huge disparity of wealth in China, much worse than Western countries. Let me give you a hypothetical example:
you can't just quote random fancy fairytale hypothetical data to make a point. go do your homework and come back. anybody can make up numbers
Quote:
Originally Posted by academe View Post
Also following this line of thought, what I'd also like to know is why many anti-China posters don't have a problem with garments being made in Italy. Ralph Lauren is an American company; following this line of logic, then it should be equally upsetting to the American patriot to have garment manufacturing for RL moved to Italy. After, why have Caruso or Cantarelli make your suits when you could use Martin Greenfield?
a person cannot be this dense. we're not talking about an american company outsourcing clothing to any other country, we're talking about specific situations in china that are different from any developed nation like italy. while shantytowns and illegal immigrants might run amuck in the clothing industry in italy, at least italy has vital human rights laws. i would imagine standard of living is at least higher compared to china among such people. i would also imagine that the more media exposure there is of such situations things will change, whereas china actively suppresses any such sort of media exposure and will not change
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwoyeu View Post
In case anyone's interested, here's Scott Sternberg (BoO) explaining why some of his cashmere sweaters are made in China:
Quote:
for example, Chinese cashmere can be superior depending on the type of sweater, so we’ll make those sweaters there – we do so not to save money or become part of the evil Empire but because it’s the best solution for a given product)
that's an awesome quote... except for the part where he fails to give any sort of justification as to why he has to manufacture chinese cashmere in china. if it's not to save money then what is the reason? you mean it actually would cost less to import it to some other country and have it manufactured there (ie because otherwise he would be saving money by manufacturing in china).
Quote:
Originally Posted by academe View Post
Regarding 10 hour work days; I would like to suggest that perceptions of what constitute "reasonable working hours" varies significantly from one country to another, so your suggestion that "long hours in China = bad" is really a red herring.
right because variance in cultural norms is the reason for 10 hour work days and not retrograde labor laws. are you seriously implying that asians actually enjoy 70, 80, 90 hour workweeks because they're asian? goddamn major i'm absolutely astounded at teh stupidity of this statement. fwiw korea recently barely abolished the six day workweek despite stiff opposition from corporations. the workers must have so disappointed /rant this thread sucks. literally maybe two of you made any sort of valuable contribution with insider knowledge. the rest of you just talked about the quality of the made in china sweaters you owned or spouted some fancy numbers pulled out of your ass
post #89 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by academe View Post
\\ Did you not spend the time reading any of the other posts in the thread?
Yeah, I read all the posts. I guess it just bothers me the extent to which companies go to maximize profits, but I realize this is capitalism and the current state of our global, industrial economy.
post #90 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post
this thread sucks. literally maybe two of you made any sort of valuable contribution with insider knowledge. the rest of you just talked about the quality of the made in china sweaters you owned or spouted some fancy numbers pulled out of your ass
Doesn't sound like anyone in this thread has visited a Chinese factory. Info seems to be coming from media reports/hearsay. Hell, doesn't even sound like anyone's worked in a sweatshop factory before to know what makes the work shitty. No one even touched upon any of the stuff that really sucks for factory workers yet.
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