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Opinions of Prozac, I start tomorrow - Page 6

post #76 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post
It also seems your information isn't correct. Link
What exactly are you arguing? The information you provided from Wikipedia does not refute my point: SSRI's work by increasing the activity of serotonin in the brain, 5-htp works to increase the production of serotonin.
post #77 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
What exactly are you arguing? The information you provided from Wikipedia does not refute my point: SSRI's work by increasing the activity of serotonin in the brain, 5-htp works to increase the production of serotonin.
You say that the cause of depression / suicidal tendencies is "most likely, a serotonin deficiency" which the SSRI drugs "do nothing to enhance". The article that I quoted says that the body adapts to the serotonin deficiency by "lowering (downregulating) the sensitivity of the autoreceptors." when using SSRI drugs.
post #78 of 90
You also say this:
Quote:
Aside from the fact that taking such a supplement will actually address the root cause of your condition, rather than just put a band aid on the symptoms, taking such a supplement is a much safer alternative than an SSRI, with little to no side effects. It is also considerably cheaper, with no prescription necessary, as 5-htp can commonly be found over the counter at any health market or pharmacy.
And in just doing a little research on what you're talking about, I found this: Link
Quote:
SSRIs versus 5-HT-Prodrugs Serotonin cannot be administered directly because when ingested orally, it will not cross the blood-brain barrier, and therefore would have no effect on brain functions. Also, serotonin would activate every synapse it reaches, whereas SSRIs only enhance a signal that is already present, but too weak to come through. In addition, hope for breaching the blood-brain barrier for causes such as severe depression is underway. The selectivity of the membrane can be reduced for a drug by injecting it in a concentrated sugar solution. The high osmotic pressure of the sugar solution causes the endothelial cells of the capillaries to shrink, which opens gaps between their tight junctions and makes the barrier more permeable. As a result the drug can enter the brain tissue
Are you saying that this is incorrect? And, apparently these are some of the side effects of what you're recommending: Link
Quote:
Possible risks or side effects Because 5-HTP has not been thoroughly studied in a clinical setting, possible side effects and interactions with other drugs are not well known. Administered serotonin has been shown to increase the risk of heart valve disease in animals.[19][20] 5-HTP has not been subjected to this test. Oral 5-HTP results in an increase in urinary 5-HIAA, a serotonin metabolite, indicating that 5-HTP is peripherally metabolized to serotonin, which is then metabolized. This might cause a false positive test in tests looking for carcinoid syndrome.[21] 5-HTP can cause hypertension by increasing plasma renin activity, when not co-administered with a peripheral aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase inhibitor, such as carbidopa or benserazide.[22] Direct and indirect evidence for possible yet unproven risks and side effects associated with 5-HTP when overdosed: * Heart valve damage or disease (cardiac fibrosis).[19][20] * When combined with MAOIs or SSRIs, 5-HTP can cause acute serotonin syndrome.[23][24] * When combined with carbidopa (as a treatment for symptoms of Parkinson's disease), 5-HTP causes nausea and vomiting; however this can be alleviated via administration of granisetron.[25] As mentioned above under pharmacology, cases of scleroderma-like illness have been reported in patients using carbidopa and 5-HTP. [26]
post #79 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post
You say that the cause of depression / suicidal tendencies is "most likely, a serotonin deficiency" which the SSRI drugs "do nothing to enhance" The article that I quoted says that the body adapts to the serotonin deficiency by "lowering (downregulating) the sensitivity of the autoreceptors." when using SSRI drugs.
Again, this isn't refuting my point: SSRI's do not enhance the body's production of serotonin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post
And in just doing a little research on what you're talking about, I found this: Link Are you saying that this is incorrect?
You misunderstood. I am not advocating administering serotonin (5-ht) orally. Serotonin can not simply be imported into the brain from outside. It is manufactured from within. Which is why I am advocating administering 5-htp orally, which is the body's direct metabolic precursor to serotonin, which easily crosses the blood brain barrier.
Quote:
And, apparently these are some of the side effects of what you're recommending: Link
Of course, ingesting any substance in its isolated form, such as the amino acid 5-htp, has the possibility to cause side effects.I too could give you a list of side effects for Prozac. Believe me, it would greatly outnumber the relatively infinitesimal amount of those from 5-htp, most of which can be avoided by not mixing certain medications. Just to name a few statistics on the side effects of Prozac: 20% of patients experience nausea; 20 percent headaches; 15 percent anxiety and nervousness; 14 percent insomnia; 12 percent drowsiness; 12 percent diarrhea; 9.5 percent dry mouth; 9 percent loss of appetite; 8 percent sweating and tremor; and 3 percent rash. Prozac also does a nice job of inhibiting sexual function, as many posters in this thread have attested to. You seem adamant to prove me wrong. Do you work for Pfizer or something?
post #80 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
Again, this isn't refuting my point: SSRI's do not enhance the body's production of serotonin.

Right. I just don't understand the reason for you trying to make this point since it doesn't seem to matter since the body adjusts anyway?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
I am not advocating administering serotonin (5-ht) orally. Serotonin can not simply be imported into the brain from outside. It is manufactured from within. Which is why I am advocating administering 5-htp orally, which is the body's direct metabolic precursor to serotonin, which easily crosses the blood brain barrier.

Can you clarify this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
Of course, ingesting any substance in its isolated form, such as the amino acid 5-htp, has the possibility to cause side effects.I too could give you a list of side effects for Prozac. Believe me, it would greatly outnumber the relatively infinitesimal amount of those from 5-htp, most of which can be avoided by not mixing certain medications.

And how do you know this since it's relatively untested? Also, the drugs you are recommending don't work the same way and have the same effect as SSRI's which focus more on the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
Just to name a few statistics on the side effects of Prozac:

20% of patients experience nausea; 20 percent headaches; 15 percent anxiety and nervousness; 14 percent insomnia; 12 percent drowsiness; 12 percent diarrhea; 9.5 percent dry mouth; 9 percent loss of appetite; 8 percent sweating and tremor; and 3 percent rash. Prozac also does a nice job of inhibiting sexual function, as many posters in this thread have attested to

I'm well aware of the side effects of SSRI's and it really has nothing to do with what I asked you.

Also, many of the side effects of SSRI's disappear after a short time of use. In addition, I'd ask that you post some resources for where you're getting your percentages. I'm not aware of these percentages.

Finally, one can change whatever drug one is on with the help of a doctor to find one where there isn't any or there are very minimal side effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
You seem adamant to prove me wrong. Do you work for Pfizer or something?

Firstly, you make general blanket statements against the use of SSRI's which simply aren't true.

Plus, I'm not adamant to prove you wrong, I simply see some inconsistencies, untruths, and conspiracy theories in your statements and asked about them. I also don't know a lot of what you're talking about and when I look into it I have questions. That should be easy to do, no?

I get suspicious and curious when I see your statements, especially when you think I work for a drug company and that's why I'm questioning you. Like it's some sort of conspiracy or something...

I'm aware of the side effects of the drugs that are being discussed and I'm also aware of millions of people that are doing much better by taking SSRI's and are able to then work through their depression despite the fact that they have a dry mouth or crave a candy bar.

Your and other people's distrust seems disproportionate.
post #81 of 90
He is saying that 5-HTP does not contain serotonin but works by helping the body produce its own serotonin.
post #82 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post
Right. I just don't understand the reason for you trying to make this point since it doesn't seem to matter since the body adjusts anyway?




Can you clarify this?



And how do you know this since it's relatively untested? Also, the drugs you are recommending don't work the same way and have the same effect as SSRI's which focus more on the problem.



I'm well aware of the side effects of SSRI's and it really has nothing to do with what I asked you.

Also, many of the side effects of SSRI's disappear after a short time of use. In addition, I'd ask that you post some resources for where you're getting your percentages. I'm not aware of these percentages.

Finally, one can change whatever drug one is on with the help of a doctor to find one where there isn't any or there are very minimal side effects.



Firstly, you make general blanket statements against the use of SSRI's which simply aren't true.

Plus, I'm not adamant to prove you wrong, I simply see some inconsistencies, untruths, and conspiracy theories in your statements and asked about them. I also don't know a lot of what you're talking about and when I look into it I have questions. That should be easy to do, no?

I get suspicious and curious when I see your statements, especially when you think I work for a drug company and that's why I'm questioning you. Like it's some sort of conspiracy or something...

I'm aware of the side effects of the drugs that are being discussed and I'm also aware of millions of people that are doing much better by taking SSRI's and are able to then work through their depression despite the fact that they have a dry mouth or crave a candy bar.

Your and other people's distrust seems disproportionate.

You're clearly adamant in proving him wrong when you see inconsistencies and untruths and conspiracy theories that aren't there.

I think one thing you keep misunderstanding is that 5-HTP is a precursor to serotonin, not serotonin itself. Do you understand what a precursor is? Because in that exact paragraph you quoted asking for clarification he states the difference between oral 5-HTP and oral serotonin is that serotonin in the body is made from 5-HTP (ie is a precursor).

Also you quote adaptation of the body to SSRIs (downregulation of serotonin receptors) to try and counter what point? None of your arguments make sense because nobody said anything to the contrary of what you're arguing.

I think you're also confusing downregulation of serotonin receptors with ssris not working at all

Quote:
I just don't understand the reason for you trying to make this point since it doesn't seem to matter since the body adjusts anyway?

adaptation just means that serotonin doesnt work as efficiently anymore after sometime. how long of a time that is and how much adaptation occurs is a big factor. it's not as simple as saying SSRIs are useless (ie it is untrue that "it doesn't matter because the body adjusts anyway" because the body will adjust to a level that is not zero (which is where it would actually not matter).

also you say this

Quote:
I'm well aware of the side effects of SSRI's and it really has nothing to do with what I asked you.

but earlier you quote the side effects of 5-HTP. do you not understand the debate?

you were arguing that 5-HTP has side effects that mm#### failed to mention implying that 5-HTP is dangerous to take because of the side effects you quoted. then mm#### wrote that 5-HTP has side effects just like prozac. then you said "the side effets of SSRI's have really nothing to do with what I asked you."

say whaaaat????

i think you need to cool your head off a bit, go do something else, and then try again.

i'm sure you're a highly intelligent person. maybe you're just being bombarded by information you have not fully assimilated and then are trying to retort with whatever comes to mind. i've been tehre before and speed of response doesn't really help with the cogency of your arguments.

also

@JoelF

I've met a lot of doctors in my lifetime, some of whom (whom, not who because it's an object, not a subject) I interact with regularly and literally none of them got in the profession to make money off their clients. they just wanted to work in a field where they can help people get better. seriously. they're not trying to be balling by extorting their patients.
post #83 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post


People don't say things like, "organic brain disease" anymore.

This isn't the 1950's.


WFM I would never have guessed.
post #84 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post
Right. I just don't understand the reason for you trying to make this point since it doesn't seem to matter since the body adjusts anyway?
I am sorry you don't understand.
Quote:
Can you clarify this?
5-ht is serotonin. 5-htp is 5-hydroxytryptophan, the body's precursor to serotonin. You posted a link stating that taking 5-ht orally does not provide results because of its inability to cross the blood brain barrier. Fine, I agree. But I never said to take 5-ht orally. 5-ht is not 5-htp...okay?
Quote:
And how do you know this since it's relatively untested? Also, the drugs you are recommending don't work the same way and have the same effect as SSRI's which focus more on the problem.
Please explain to me how this is true. And I know this from reading the literature and results of trials done mostly in Europe, where, as I stated, recognizes the efficacy of herbal supplements more so than the USA.
Quote:
I'm well aware of the side effects of SSRI's and it really has nothing to do with what I asked you.
It kind of does.
Quote:
Also, many of the side effects of SSRI's disappear after a short time of use. In addition, I'd ask that you post some resources for where you're getting your percentages. I'm not aware of these percentages.
I highly doubt the accuracy of this statement. The percentages were taken from the book 5-htp by Dr. Michael Murray. If you are interested in this topic further, which it seems you are, I recommend you read this book.
Quote:
Firstly, you make general blanket statements against the use of SSRI's which simply aren't true. Plus, I'm not adamant to prove you wrong, I simply see some inconsistencies, untruths, and conspiracy theories in your statements and asked about them. I also don't know a lot of what you're talking about and when I look into it I have questions. That should be easy to do, no?
Conspiracy theories? What are you talking about?
Quote:
I get suspicious and curious when I see your statements, especially when you think I work for a drug company and that's why I'm questioning you. Like it's some sort of conspiracy or something...
The Pfizer thing was a joke....
Quote:
I'm aware of the side effects of the drugs that are being discussed and I'm also aware of millions of people that are doing much better by taking SSRI's and are able to then work through their depression despite the fact that they have a dry mouth or crave a candy bar.
And are you aware of how much better they could be doing if treated correctly? Honestly, I am glad you are questioning me. The debate is definitely worthwhile and I think it is important for people to understand the efficacy of alternative methods of treatment.
post #85 of 90
Now that I've had some time to actually read through the posts I'll try to be more clear in my responses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
5-ht is serotonin. 5-htp is 5-hydroxytryptophan, the body's precursor to serotonin. You posted a link stating that taking 5-ht orally does not provide results because of its inability to cross the blood brain barrier. Fine, I agree. But I never said to take 5-ht orally. 5-ht is not 5-htp...okay?

Sorry, I didn't notice that you posted 2 different things as I was in a hurry and running out the door when I responded. Now I see that you posted 5ht and 5htp. I thought you posted the same thing twice (5 ht) and contradicted yourself.

I also see that we agree on the 5-ht.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
Please explain to me how this is true.

Again, I was talking about 5 ht which I see isn't what you posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
It kind of does.

The reason I said that is that I don't think it's really an apples to apples comparison. The effects ssri's (which are different from 5-htp's) are relatively well known, the effects of 5-htps are not. I'm not saying that they're NOT effective (from what I've read they can be) I'm just saying that they aren't that known even in Europe.

Plus, 5 htps increase serotonin, while ssri's help bridge the gap (so to speak) and can even develop the pathways needed to stop depression from happening in the future.

They do similar but different things, to put it simply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
I highly doubt the accuracy of this statement.

You probably already know this but Ssri's take several weeks to actually take effect. There are reactions by the body to the introduction to the new drug which can disappear after the drug actually takes effect. That's why it's started in very small doses to make sure that there isn't a large reaction to the drug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
The percentages were taken from the book 5-htp by Dr. Michael Murray. If you are interested in this topic further, which it seems you are, I recommend you read this book.

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
Conspiracy theories? What are you talking about?

When I see this:

Quote:
I would not recommend Prozac, or any form of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors for that matter. While you may see temporary improvement from taking such psychotropic drugs, they are not going to address the actual root cause of your depression/suicidal tendencies. The cause, most likely, is a serotonin deficiency. SSRIs work by conserving existing brain serotonin supplies by keeping more serotonin in the synaptic gap between neurons. In essence, they recycle your brains existing low levels of serotonin, but do nothing to enhance it.

When I see the first and second sentence, in addition to what you said about doctors (which you did clarify) I think conspiracy theory and blanket statements. And when I saw the Pfizer thing I had a little knee jerk reaction. Although, I did see this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
The Pfizer thing was a joke...

IMO, ssri's can and should be used in many instances, they CAN address the "actual root cause" of one's depression ESPECIALLY if it's chronic and deep and mainly a chemical imbalance which it can be.

Not, of course, to deny that it could be a lack of serotonin, it certainly could be that but my guess is that's a minority cause of the people that are depressed / severely depressed. I assume that you think it's a majority cause of depression and I wonder why? I assume that it's somehow a bias (as my opinion my be as well...).

Overall, I think ssri's are helpful to many people and do much, MUCH more good than harm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
And are you aware of how much better they could be doing if treated correctly?

Are there instances where someone may have low serotonin and take an SSRI which then doesn't work because of the body is not producing enough serotonin? Possibly. How often does this happen? I'm not really sure.
post #86 of 90
Although I work in the mental health field I am by no means very familiar with pharmacology or even the treatment of depression. But I do want to say I've enjoyed reading thru this debate. Very informative and I appreciate the generally respectful way people are disagreeing with one another. (style)forum at its best. thank you
post #87 of 90
There's a new drug for depression which is supposed to not have any sexual (and other?) side effects. I can't remember the name but starts with "Vii" (or something like that). It's supposed to use 5ht. I wish I would've copied and posted the article. I don't remember where I saw it. Found it: Link
post #88 of 90
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beonrealitytv View Post
Be prepared for a dry mouth and headaches.

Better than hang myself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinHansen View Post
Perhaps it is very different where you live, but here we can just change doctors if we find ours incompent, lack of trust or anything.

Best of luck to you

It seems like i am the only one on styleforum that has never been on any medication

Yes I have been in several, so do my cousin. Even was to a proper doctor that made him put his finger on a glass of water with oil, as crazy witches do

Quote:
Originally Posted by willpower View Post


What kind of activity is that measuring?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlino View Post
Ordered a jar of 5-HTP supplement to give it a try. Will report back.

Do not take it if your are taking antidepressants as well as L-triptophane. Risk of death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 89826 View Post
Spalla,

I HIGHLY recommend a book called Spark, The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain. Written by John Ratey, a professor at Harvard Medical School. It can change your life.


Ok, I was recommended 2 days ago on the forum the power of now, that is in my public library translated to Spanish. I am gonna look for yours or order it in english if with my level could understand it. What's the matter with it?

Thank you all
post #89 of 90
Thread Starter 
The author I have been recommended here, also has a book that I read about the atention defict with hyperactivy that I have.


I readed that book several months ago. Spark has not been translated yet.


http://www.casadellibro.com/libros/r...ratey32john2j1
post #90 of 90
I'm not going to jump into this argument, but how many of you have a background in pharmacology/neurology? There are a lot of blanket statements being thrown around, and some misconceptions about the mechanisms of these drugs. To the OP, all I san say is consult some literature if you can, read up on treatment options, and discuss it with doctors. It's pretty standard to only go to SSRIs if other options aren't working.

Also, my two cents: the effect of regular exercise is not to be taken for granted. It really does wonders.
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