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TOJ - updates on the debacle, complaints, news about other ventures, whatever. - Page 2651post #39751 of 545165/15/14 at 7:35pmFigured it could promote some additional discussion aside from wait times. Definitely not the best place to post it, but didn't think it could hurt either considering I own/have on order several tojs to compare it to. Jacket is hilariously stiff and doesn't look nearly as good worn open, at the moment atleast. Will try and grab some fit pics with it open when I get back home.
Styleforum Top Pickspost #39752 of 545165/15/14 at 7:42pmpost #39753 of 545165/15/14 at 7:43pmHaven't posted here in awhile, my final jacket is around 44 weeks ago as well so I can share everyone's pain.
But honestly at this point, with June on the horizon it really doesn't matter when it comes anymore since I can't wear it until September anyways.
I really hope it comes before September...lolpost #39754 of 545165/15/14 at 8:04pmQuote:Completely missing the point. I don't think I've seen anyone ask to have the ToJ business model broken down for them in a while.Originally Posted by cyc wid it
Lack of transparency... it's been explained a billion times how ToJ works as a company.
Pretty much everybody at this point should have at least a basic understanding of the above. Would it be nice to have better information like "hey guys, this week our folks are working on these particular models from this particular week of orders". Sure it would be nice. Would I expect aging artisans (or whatever you want to call them) to do this if they haven't been accustomed to before? Probably not.
Could they have made better estimates when telling you about your orders placed around or shortly after the initial deadline? Yes. But that's over and done with. So what do you want them to do moving forward? Hire another person just to handle logistical details on the ground? Not really practical considering ToJ is shutting down.
If you don't have the capacity to understand the limitations of ToJ's business model, it won't matter that it's a great value within the world of fashunz. Just cough up the dough and go buy a SLP rider, wear it out of the store and call it a day.
These guys're wondering if queue times are expected to keep increasing, or if something's being done to get them under control/reduced. It shouldn't take a lot of effort to keep people updated (about delays or whatever), especially when some of these guys have been waiting much longer than expected to receive their jacket.
... And before you bring up your gunsmith issue, you had the benefit of knowing it'd take a while... I'm pretty sure wait times like these are unprecedented for TOJ.post #39755 of 545165/15/14 at 8:42pmThe very aspects of the ToJ model (which you can argue that they've outgrown) which make it affordable and able to be done MTM make it difficult to provide anything beyond ballpark estimates and really annoying to provide information on specific orders. The best you could hope for is an update saying they're working on X model submitted around roughly Y date. They can't retroactively go back and provide more accurate estimates. What can they do now? Provide more updates? The reason why they can't/don't is described above.post #39756 of 545165/15/14 at 9:02pmi realize that this is going to sound ridiculous and make me seem like the ultimate TOJ fanboy, but the amount of new members with only 2 posts and recent join dates/TOJ first timers and newbies, complaining about the wait is seriously pissing me the fuck off.
they lost a member of the team and received 1000s of orders that they werent expecting to receive, obviously the wait times will increase tenfold. charly had no idea that the wait times would remain like this or even jump to this long, he was only quoting the time-frame that he thought the team was capable of sticking to. like drew said, theres no way to account for sick days, family leave and workers quitting altogether. there is no "transparency", charly does his best to give us time frames, but in reality theres no way that he could even know if those quotes are possible. he gives them out to appease us.
drew has been giving everybody more than enough time to get their last orders in, maybe he did it because he needs the extra $, but thats still besides the fact. he announced that they were closing the doors and the fact that they are still allowing us to place orders is GENEROUS. yes, i said GENEROUS. if he shut the orders down on the original date that he announced, these same people complaining about their wait times would be pissing and moaning about how they just discovered TOJ and never had a chance to order. i bet some people would even go as far as offering to pay more and saying that they dont care how long the order takes, as long as they receive their jacket in the end.
you guys all fucking suck and should just be glad that drew is giving us a shot to order more jackets in the first place.post #39757 of 545165/15/14 at 9:17pmQuote:C'mon man - Instead of stating the obvious, take some time to digest my reply.Originally Posted by cyc wid it
The very aspects of the ToJ model (which you can argue that they've outgrown) which make it affordable and able to be done MTM make it difficult to provide anything beyond ballpark estimates and really annoying to provide information on specific orders. The best you could hope for is an update saying they're working on X model submitted around roughly Y date. They can't retroactively go back and provide more accurate estimates. What can they do now? Provide more updates? The reason why they can't/don't is described above.
They can't go back in time and let people know that xx sewer would get sick, or that they took another vacation before/after lunar new year.
... but they can let us know about stuff like: significant production delays as they pop up, whether they're comfortable with the current lead times, if someone will replace Sally (potentially making QC/shipping faster), if they're thinking about doing anything production-side to get people their jackets sooner (or if that'll ever be an option), etc.Quote:Join date isn't an indicator of their time in the queue, or how many jackets they own. I don't think it's a bad thing that they're complaining now either ... especially if they've kept their mouth shut for 40 weeks.
I'm not trying to stir the pot or get people worked up, but I think that we ought to be a lil more understanding (rather than dismissive) of people who're voicing their frustrations about the queue times.post #39758 of 545165/15/14 at 9:21pmpost #39759 of 545165/15/14 at 9:27pmThen cancel and buy something else? The issues some people have are well documented at this point - there's no easy solution. If ToJ was going to continue on as a business I'm sure they would've either hired someone else or whatever in an effort to be more proactive with communication.
I don't really think Drew's going to visit every single workshop on 1 day off a week or whatever to find out a status. Maybe once every month or so, sure that would be nice. Remember, he's deaf so phone calls don't really work.post #39760 of 545165/15/14 at 9:31pmpost #39761 of 545165/15/14 at 9:31pmQuote:
I'm not sure how you think that's an appropriate response.
(It kind of doesn't solve his problem at all.)post #39762 of 545165/15/14 at 9:35pmIt might make people feel better to vent, but it's probably not going to result in any change. That's why people don't care to read pages of wondering about waits or orders. Whether we like it or not, it's part of the deal at this point. Whatever it is you were quoted when you ordered, that's in the past. Yeah sure it sucks when things in life are delayed whether it's a flight or a jacket. Sure it sucks more if it's delayed a lot. This isn't really a case where bitching about it is going to result in a meaningful difference.
Nothing feasible will solve his problem at this point. The solution: whenever it comes it comes.
My last order was placed on July 2nd last year. I'm just as "invested" as anyone in getting my new rider.post #39763 of 545165/15/14 at 9:42pmpost #39764 of 545165/15/14 at 9:48pmpost #39765 of 545165/15/14 at 9:55pmDoesn't really seem like an either/ or.
If you've been waiting 40+ weeks for a jacket that you were told would arrive in 24 weeks, it's fine to get a little antsy, and vent in a thread that's dedicated to that company. It helps others know what's going on, and trading information is what these threads are about.
At the same time, cyc wid it detailed out what I think is a realistic view of what's going on with the company. They're small and heavily stretched, and are providing a lot of product value, but at the trade off of not having the same kind of infrastructure of bigger companies. It'd be nice to get an email update from them, but ... that hasn't happened, and frankly, wouldn't really do anything for me personally anyway. Maybe it would for some people though.
IMO, it's fine to whine a little in the thread. It's just a little annoying when it's the same person doing it every three days, or when it's someone who ordered 8 weeks ago, or when it's people who don't even know the correct number of weeks they've been waiting.
I will say, custom clothing often runs into long production delays like this, and you kind of have to know it's just the nature of the beast. I have a custom sport coat being made at the moment that's about 8 months overdue. It's from a small tailoring firm who also provides a lot of value, but is also not some big company that just bangs things out for thousands of people. There's both an upside and downside to that.
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