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The new official TOJ thread, 2011 - Page 2650

post #39736 of 43217

Good response Wangjt lol. I like how you actually thoroughly answered him in his own scenario with an actual real life issues.

 

I'm on week 37 goiing on week 38 for a brown lamb A-2. Never swapped orders once or emailed to ask for update. I've almost silently read every post for the past 5 months with the limited updates out there when I was getting close to 16 weeks. There is a straight up lack of updates from T0j. That much is true. We don't even know what orders they're working on or how close or far we are. We don't know if the 45 weekers are outliers or if that batch just hasn't been completed yet. We know next to nothing and that is a bummer.

post #39737 of 43217
Lack of transparency... it's been explained a billion times how ToJ works as a company.

Drew is the creative mind. He comes up with designs and patterns. He then works with a handful of small mom and pop workshops that specialize in making 1 or 2 particular models out of the entire ToJ lineup. Drew sources all of the leather and raw materials personally and provides them to these shops. Orders are produced in small batches by each of these workshops in whatever manner is most efficient to them. If one shop makes all the rider variants, they will produce for example 25 BCDR's in a batch and then move on to another model. They don't produce each specific order on a first in first out basis.

Charly answers all of your questions regarding sizing and orders etc. He is located here in the USA and has a normal job outside of ToJ. He does not have a webcam or direct line of communication to any of these workshops. When you ask him what the deal is with your order or what specific orders are being produced, it can be next to impossible to provide anything more than a vague estimate. This is part of the nature of the business model. I really doubt the folks physically making the jackets are e-mailing Charly or Drew "hey today, we made these jackets with these dimensions, order number XYZ for so and so located in so so".

There is one person who handles the shipping aspect of ToJ for the most part (Drew helped as needed, less now that he has his restaurant stuff). This person picks up batches of jackets and ships them in bulk via EMS. He does not make the rounds every single day to every workshop and send them out on a daily basis. Shipping used to happen on a weekly basis, but there used to be an extra employee.

Pretty much everybody at this point should have at least a basic understanding of the above. Would it be nice to have better information like "hey guys, this week our folks are working on these particular models from this particular week of orders". Sure it would be nice. Would I expect aging artisans (or whatever you want to call them) to do this if they haven't been accustomed to before? Probably not.

Could they have made better estimates when telling you about your orders placed around or shortly after the initial deadline? Yes. But that's over and done with. So what do you want them to do moving forward? Hire another person just to handle logistical details on the ground? Not really practical considering ToJ is shutting down.

If you don't have the capacity to understand the limitations of ToJ's business model, it won't matter that it's a great value within the world of fashunz. Just cough up the dough and go buy a SLP rider, wear it out of the store and call it a day.

There are group buys being facilitated with other famous (and larger) heritage jacket brands and guess what: 1 agreed upon model with only length adjustments and a 6 month wait give or take. Knock yourself out.

I own or have owned Rick, Margiela, ToJ, etc. They each bring different things to the table. If you are in that struggle and a ToJ is your gateway to nice stuff, suck it up and wait. If you have funky proportions and need MTM, suck it up and wait (or ball out at Hermes or somewhere and pay for full custom - 5 figures plus). If you have the money to spend and you don't need MTM and you aren't particularly in love with Drew's designs, then maybe ToJ isn't for you. That's okay.
post #39738 of 43217
Quote:
Originally Posted by seabrass View Post

Clearly none of you guys have ever made any kind of investment - you're all getting so sweaty about waiting for a great piece. I'm just like... pay the man, forget about it, get a nice surprise treat a year later. You ever invested in your retirement? You can't get antsy about that because that won't kickback until way way way later. You think waiting a year for something good is bad? Damn, son(s).

I get that you're talking about waiting for a pay-off, but it's still a pretty stupid comparison, not the least because we're giving these guys a 1-year, no-interest $1,000 loan. So yeah, your comparison just went to shit. If we booked an appointment of some kind and had to wait a year to get it and pay our money and receive the item at the same time, I think that would be different. When you're collecting cash a year in advance, I think that's different.

Personally, I don't like the wait, but I'm a patient guy. By the 44th week, I'm sure I'd be just like these other guys here.
post #39739 of 43217
Lots of niche industries work this way. Gunsmithing (often a hefty deposit or full price up front with a multi year wait). Custom car work. Etc.
post #39740 of 43217
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

wtf is even going on with this thread anymore? Are we really comparing ToJ jackets to retirement accounts?

To wangjt: you're not even anywhere near your aug/ sept deadline, and you're already anticipating a 1 year delay? Doesn't that seem a bit premature? Plus, when you ordered, there were presumably pages of people already noting the long wait times. Wouldn't you naturally take that into account?

I assume if your estimated delivery time is aug/ sept, you ordered in March. Kind of early to start hyperventilating.

 

LOL.  Calm down.  I don't know why you're getting so defensive about this.  This is just my opinion that his analogy is off and wanted to give a better one.  

 

I also need to make it clear that I'm not getting impatient... at least not yet.  But I'd be lying to you to say I'm confident that my jacket will still be delivered on time in August (I ordered Feb).  If someone who ordered last year in June (10 and 1/2 months ago) still haven't received theirs, logically speaking, I should be waiting even longer than that because I ordered so much later, people are rolling off, interesting going towards other projects... etc.  I admit this is another assumption, which is why I do wish they'd clarify and at least explain why some of us are waiting 10+ months vs their original estimate (which was probably less than 6 months back in June 2013).

 

Also, when I ordered, I specifically asked in my email (before I sent them money) how long and was told by them "a little over 6 months".  That says to me... August/Sept.  I had no other reason to believe otherwise.  Checking the forums at that time, the longest wait time I saw was around 30 weeks, so it sounded like a good estimate so I went ahead with the order.  44 and counting is quite a big difference and I think those waiting that long do deserve some kind of explanation.  

 

TL DR;  Waiting patiently for now... but lost a lot of confidence on meeting the deadline.  

post #39741 of 43217
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyc wid it View Post


I own or have owned Rick, Margiela, ToJ, etc. They each bring different things to the table. If you are in that struggle and a ToJ is your gateway to nice stuff, suck it up and wait. If you have funky proportions and need MTM, suck it up and wait (or ball out at Hermes or somewhere and pay for full custom - 5 figures plus). If you have the money to spend and you don't need MTM and you aren't particularly in love with Drew's designs, then maybe ToJ isn't for you. That's okay.

 

 

Telling people to pay 5 figures as if there aren't other MTM services out there? come on.   Nobody expected wait times to be nearly a year, not even Drew and Charly. The wait time may be the norm in other fields but people go into those purchases with different expectations. People have the right to be upset and I think a bi-monthly mass email to TOJ's customerbase on the status of orders, what jackets are sending out next, etc, wouldn't take as much effort as you propose it would.

post #39742 of 43217
There are lots, but a majority of them have terrible styling and relying on fashion newbs (or even most vets) to design their own jacket is a disaster waiting to happen. There are definitely a few others that offer decent materials + quality of construction + styling guidance. My point was more that if you needed MTM or full custom, you can go to most of the major fashion houses and they will accommodate you if you pay enough. They will also provide a higher level of styling input to prevent salad bar disasters.
post #39743 of 43217
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyc wid it View Post

Drew is the creative mind. He comes up with designs and patterns. He then works with a handful of small mom and pop workshops that specialize in making 1 or 2 particular models out of the entire ToJ lineup. Drew sources all of the leather and raw materials personally and provides them to these shops. Orders are produced in small batches by each of these workshops in whatever manner is most efficient to them. If one shop makes all the rider variants, they will produce for example 25 BCDR's in a batch and then move on to another model. They don't produce each specific order on a first in first out basis.

Charly answers all of your questions regarding sizing and orders etc. He is located here in the USA and has a normal job outside of ToJ. He does not have a webcam or direct line of communication to any of these workshops. When you ask him what the deal is with your order or what specific orders are being produced, it can be next to impossible to provide anything more than a vague estimate. This is part of the nature of the business model. I really doubt the folks physically making the jackets are e-mailing Charly or Drew "hey today, we made these jackets with these dimensions, order number XYZ for so and so located in so so".

There is one person who handles the shipping aspect of ToJ for the most part (Drew helped as needed, less now that he has his restaurant stuff). This person picks up batches of jackets and ships them in bulk via EMS. He does not make the rounds every single day to every workshop and send them out on a daily basis. Shipping used to happen on a weekly basis, but there used to be an extra employee.

Pretty much everybody at this point should have at least a basic understanding of the above.

So really, it's like you're a 81 year old peasant in China, and the government hasn't reformed the banking system yet, so all investments take place through various backalley, curb markets, such as interpersonal lending through rural cooperative foundations (minjian jiedai), trade credits through shareholding cooperative enterprises (gufen hezuo qiye), and rotating credit associations through red hat/ hang-on enterprises (hui). In your village, however, there are underground private money pools organized through the local Buddhist temple, to which you've contributed to for the last 17 years, with the idea that one day you will be able to approach the temple and ask for a business loan. However, when you ask for a loan to start your taxi service in Beijing, local man Tony Leung also asks for one to open a butcher shop. "No!," you exclaim, "I've been waiting 17 years to start my taxi service." However, through informal meetings, the elders in your temple somehow decide that the loan should go to Leung first. So you wait another year, and another year, and another year. Then, a war breaks out between China and Vietnam over the disputed territories, and it's too fucking late to have your taxi service. The city is at war and people are being drafted to fight the Vietnamese. You kiss your wife goodbye, and curse yourself for ever believing in the workings of an informal banking sector in the first place.

That's what ordering from ToJ is like.
post #39744 of 43217
^^I'd let Tony Leung cut in front of me in line to the bathroom.
post #39745 of 43217

Yeah, while I understand the business model behind T0J, I too don't think it would be tough to get an update once in a while. We're not proposing them that they give us week to week or day to day updates. We haven't had an update in a month. I think it's pretty reasonable to drop by and see how things are going every month or even two.That is a helluva lot better than 1 update in 6 months that was arbitrarily done because backpacks / wallets were being done at that time and they were active here.

post #39746 of 43217
Quote:
Just cough up the dough and go buy a SLP rider

yeah this is what i did and i'm really happy with the slp though at almost 4 times the cost of a toj. i handled a bunch of second hand toj's and i loved the quality, designs, and construction but none fit just how i liked and i couldn't temper the wait. the prospect of thinking about a jacket for a year was daunting for me. im in for the daypack as the timeline was shorter and more definite.
post #39747 of 43217
I made an impulse buy on this schott+context jacket to hold me over while I wait for my calf 2013 dr. It's nice, but I got spoiled by the bemberg lining on my tojs.

(Sorry for fit pic spam, which was posted in other threads)

post #39748 of 43217
I'd like to see pictures of the jacket worn open.
post #39749 of 43217

So why exactly would you choose to show off your Schott jacket in the TOJ thread?

post #39750 of 43217
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirwest View Post

So why exactly would you choose to show off your Schott jacket in the TOJ thread?

Yeah, we'd hate to interrupt the flow of quality content.
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