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The new official TOJ thread, 2011 - Page 1674

post #25096 of 41867
It has seemed in the past that people have occasionally taken these "reviews" as being a bit too fanboyish, and perhaps they are. I like to think that they're fairly objective, but it's certainly true that writing in the heat of the moment leads to exaggeration and, perhaps, overzealous excitement. I hope that people, including Drew, can appreciate that while I often gush, there's no such thing as perfection, and that - in my mind - TOJ doesn't really strive for perfection anyway. That said, I'm not entirely sure it's hyperbole for me to say that this might be my favorite TOJ - and, as Drew pointed out, I now own a jacket each in calf, lamb, calf suede, and lamb suede, so I'd like to think that I've seen a representative example of each material, although I'm not entirely sure that my VTG jacket really counts as "calf."

The most immediately noticeable thing about this jacket is, again, the feel of it. To answer part of Drew's question about how the materials compare, it's much, much lighter than the calf suede, which, to me, feels quite burly. The T1 is probably more in line with what people expect in a suede jacket - nappy, soft, with sort of that chamois-cloth feel to it. To be honest, I haven't seen nearly as many suede jackets as I have leather ones, so it's maybe less obvious to me what gradations there are in suede types, but the calf suede certainly doesn't feel less luxe to me than the lamb, just thicker. The lamb is softer, drapier, and I think it's probably more in line with what Drew aims for with TOJ. It's more like a fabric than a leather, in some ways. Although I, for one, am glad that my baseball jacket is the thicker calf rather than lamb, I can see why he would have wanted to change the materials. The Baseball Jacket would be a very, very different piece if he were to do so, and I'd love to see one made in lamb suede. If anyone were feeling particularly daring, I think it would be worth sending an email to TOJ to see if they'd be willing to do a "custom" version for you.

Several posters have mentioned the idea that paying the full TOJ price for suede as opposed to leather feels a bit odd, and they're not entirely wrong. I don't know a thing about the hide market whatsoever, but with the lamb suede you don't get the grainy, buttery feel of the black lamb leather which has become, to an extent, the TOJ trademark. Of course, google will show you that this means nothing, and that suede is at least as expensive - if not far more expensive - than even mediocre-quality "designer" leathers - and my only point here is to say that the T1 is probably not the best "introductory jacket" for children lusting after there first TOJ piece. It does, however, really encapsulate what the brand is about, I think. The patterning on this jacket is really fantastic, from the lower armholes (comfy!) to the pleating in the shoulder and hip that gives the jacket that awesome shape when it's unbuttoned. The fit is slouchy and cool - I don't really know if there's a better way to express it than through analogy, but it's definitely (again) a luc besson piece; it has a sort of parisian chic to it that is matched by the other jackets - well, perhaps parisian is the wrong word, but there's a louche-ness to them that makes you think "yeah, American," but it's through a sort of warped lens that keeps it far, far, far away from the stuff peddled by brands like Gant and Band of Outsiders. It's not really Americana at all, actually, just a fond gesture towards it. It's recognizable but also incredibly distinct, more suitable for a baguette than a sourdough.

The same comfortably well thought-outdetails are all there - horn buttons, straight lines, half-lined pockets (this jacket has two interior pockets which is a serious hallelujah design feature for me), stitched chain - this is actually my least favorite part, because metal makes my neck cold. The only feature of this jacket that bothers me is the cotton lining. It's a nice cotton, and a lovely herringbone, but it just makes it harder to put the jacket on over a shirt, and the satin feels so luxurious on my other jackets that it seems a shame not to have it lining this one as well. That said, I'm not entirely sure it would fit the look of the trucker's jacket, and the cotton gives the piece a more rugged feel - which may or may not be necessary, considering the relative lightness of the lamb, but it doesn't feel out of place.

Again, as with all the jackets, there's a tangible sense of thoughtfulness that's apparent in the pattern design and detailing. I think that I have used the term "labor of love" before, and it applies still. For all of these pieces (the ones I own, I mean), the most important aspect is the feeling of comfort that comes with wearing them - a sigh of relief as you slip a jacket on, the realization that you don't have to put any thought into the "styling" if you don't want to: they're just really, really nice pieces of clothing that stand entirely on their own. I love putting on my sneakers, beat-up jeans, and baseball jacket and going to get coffee, and I have owned enough crap in my life to know that that's not a universal feeling.

I think my favorite bit, actually - aside from the way it looks - might be the way the seams looks on the inside. They're so neat, and the fabric is so light - it's really a thing of beauty. I love those little details; like the side button at the waist, and the pleat that sits just above it, and the way the suede dips down on the back of the collar under the all-seeing-eye. But - and I want to address this - there is a definite feel of handmade goods about all the jackets I own. I think that this is where some people get frustrated, and I would hazard that it's related to the MTM factor as well: Not every stitch is straight. There are dips, variations; quirks that I actually enjoy but imagine that some people with ocd that is more prevalent than mine could find disconcerting.

There's this myth that TOJ deals in absolute, diamond-like perfection, and that's just not true - nor is it true of anything. I think the same thing happens when people focus focus focus on getting the "perfect fit" - something that has been absent recently in the WAYWT and RFT threads, but that I think TOJ unfortunately got a bit caught up in, to no fault of its own. I remember Aeglus talking about how forgiving TOJ patterning is, and that has been my experience as well. People are trying to cut these things, varsities included, as close to the skin as possible, which is pretty unfeasible and is, in my own very humble opinion, missing the point of TOJ. Every jacket I own looks as though it was made for me - and most were - but that's because, in part, of how you wear them. People may remember Drew's post about how my B-Ball is actually a size too big for me (I would disagree), but that thought, combined with the fact that I bought it second hand, should give you an idea of how easy it is throw one of these things on. The only aspect I would caution new buyers about is going too small. Add a half-inch if you think you need one. But - and this is important - the measurements game is give-and-take; Charly knows his business but you know your body. I think there's a disconnect here, between the more, hmm, educated - or seasoned - hobbyists, and people who are buying their first jacket, first piece of clothing, whatever. TOJ does, in part, assume that people know what they want - which a relatively short lifetime of experience has already shown me is practically never true - and some people who are buying TOJ assume that it's like a fire-and-forget thing; where they don't have to do any work at all and a perfect jacket gets delivered to their door. It's not far from the truth, but when you have people who are going in and fucking with the house cut, it's not surprising that there are occasional disappointments. I think that there is, in reality, a bit of a gap on both ends, between a company that is assuming a level of knowledge that customers may not have, and customers who are assuming a level of facility that, frankly, will never exist.

In that same vein, I am still not entirely convinced of MTM's necessity. The ability to adjust lengths is, I think, the most important function of that system - and something that I find useful as well. However, as I've mentioned in the past, fretting over a quarter of a centimeter doesn't do anybody any good. However, the caveat to that is that I've basically been sizing up on everything lately, so when I say "size up" your TOJ, I recognize that it might not work for everyone, and I can recognize (even in myself) the validity of that frenetic desire for spot-on measurements. But, as I said before, thought has to go into the measurements on the buyer's end as well. Of course, the jacket that you guys have NOT seen is my girlfriends 2010 DR, which was sized based on her body measurements, and, frankly, I have no fucking idea how the TOJ guys produced a jacket with such a perfect fit. It's insane. So yes, Charly knows his stuff, but you should still be putting some thought into this, as you would anything else.

I, for one, would like to see what Drew could do with a higher markup. I'm not even entirely sure I would be able to afford it if he went a step up, but it would be interesting nonetheless. There's a real disconnect (in my mind) between the legions of varsity addicts that we saw in the early days and a piece like the 4-zip moto, the T1, or the Bball (or the bombers, which I don't own), which I think are in a different league altogether. It would be neat to see another step up, particularly in the wool department. Weirdly, it seems that my tastes are lining up with Drew's more and more these days (I've never met the man, so that's pure conjecture) - not that that sentiment is really worth anything, but it's interesting to me, at least.

I guess that the reason I have accumulated so many (relatively!) TOJ pieces is that I find them incredibly easy to fit into both my wardrobe and my world-view. There's an ineffable Gorodish-quality to them that I actually find a bit difficult to describe, but I can tell you that all 5 (!) jackets line up very nicely next to my very diverse wardrobe, which ranges from The Gap to Margiela to Rick Owens and Damir Doma. I don't think that TOJ is a universal cure-all, or anything like that, but I do think that for people who have some inkling of what they're after, you basically can't do any better - assuming you like the look of the pieces. I love the idea that I can go from blazer to leather to suede to knit with the same outfit, and that TOJ works itself effortlessly into that mix. Of course, that's a personal preference, and I'm not really one for the "gotta catch 'em all" mentality that some people seem to have towards TOJ, although I'm sure I'll continue to purchase Drew's goods. And just so we're all clear on this, I don't for a second assume that my opinions are representative of even a minority of TOJ patrons - I'm just making an attempt to communicate what it is I appreciate about the brand, the pieces, and the psychology (almost certainly invented, on my part) behind the operation.

I'm sure I'll have more to add once I'm able to actually wear the damn thing (it's 40 and raining here), but those are some first thoughts.

I hope you enjoyed that massive wall of text. Let's see some pictures:









post #25097 of 41867
tldr

details on jacket is really nice
post #25098 of 41867
some quick bathroom fit pics

post #25099 of 41867
to you toj leather jacket owners: how much does your guys toj leather stretch? is there anything i can do to prevent the shrinkage? the fit of my toj moto is perfect right now, should i worry about the stretch?
edit - after doing some archiving, it looks like the ribbing of the waist just stretches and nothing else. can anyone else verify otherwise? if not, god news for me
post #25100 of 41867
Are there any pictures of TOJ suede that has been worn constantly for at least a year? I know the leather jackets age beautifully, but it seems like the suede jackets might lose some of their beautiful luster after heavy wear and years of rubbing up against things.
post #25101 of 41867
Quote:
Originally Posted by politoskim View Post

to you toj leather jacket owners: how much does your guys toj leather stretch? is there anything i can do to prevent the shrinkage? the fit of my toj moto is perfect right now, should i worry about the stretch?
edit - after doing some archiving, it looks like the ribbing of the waist just stretches and nothing else. can anyone else verify otherwise? if not, god news for me

Honestly, if you are that worried about stretch, I think you might be too anal about the fit. If it is stretching, it is stretching for a reason.
post #25102 of 41867
These new T1 pics are damn good. It is tempting me to wear mine, but it looks like there will be wind and heavy rain for the remainder of the week.
post #25103 of 41867
yeah, both of those T-1 fits look great. I think Drew indicated this is not available in calf suede? (in response to Synth's comment) . Can't afford the lamb so would be interested in the calf if possible.
post #25104 of 41867
Baller review Synth.

Btw, didn't you used to have blond hair? Or is brown your natural color?
post #25105 of 41867

After my disastrous first purchase stock 54 I was able to find this stock 52. I probably an inch too long but I can live with that. 

 

I really like TOJ/ John Coppidge stuff but I am no way a Fan Boy. 

 

I'll leave that to others. I am now back on track to purchasing more. 

 

Just gotta figure my measurements since I now lack trust in Charly.

 

Measurements seem to be pretty spot from the two I have handled.

 

If you measure yourself and compare their chart. You should be fine.

 

Fits seem to be on par with other high end euro clothing.  

 

I would say round down their measurements to the nearest whole number, you loose a lil with sewing it seems. 

 

 

m1000

 

1000

post #25106 of 41867
Hm, who to believe. thenewjs who says to round down or Synthese who says to round up? satisfied.gif
post #25107 of 41867
Thread Starter 
Depends on where you start - it's easy cross over and order something either too small or large just from worrying too much. If you follow the measuring instructions and then use your common sense about how you want something to fit (i.e. if youre measuring an existing piece, adjust from there as you want the finished leather jacket to fit) and everything should be ok. TOJ1's and Bballs are not a good representation of the TOJ lineup in any way, to be honest. They kind of exist on their own, feature only the choice of lengths, and don't have much to do with the leather jackets or anything else. Just two pieces out of many we make, and everything has it's own pattern, of course.
post #25108 of 41867
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthese View Post

I, for one, would like to see what Drew could do with a higher markup. I'm not even entirely sure I would be able to afford it if he went a step up, but it would be interesting nonetheless. There's a real disconnect (in my mind) between the legions of varsity addicts that we saw in the early days and a piece like the 4-zip moto, the T1, or the Bball (or the bombers, which I don't own), which I think are in a different league altogether. It would be neat to see another step up, particularly in the wool department. Weirdly, it seems that my tastes are lining up with Drew's more and more these days (I've never met the man, so that's pure conjecture) - not that that sentiment is really worth anything, but it's interesting to me, at least.

There's a lot we could do if we had more fabrics, and well, markup is not a factor in the quality of the clothing, rather we should be referring to pricepoints only. There's just that slightly higher range for us where we could do more if we could get people to buy into slightly more expensive wools and stuff. That may even be possible and we've not tried, but yeah, nicer wool and stuff does exist but it's rather expensive.
There might be some huge changes at TOJ/JC soon, strictly for the improvement - we might take off big time and be able have all those things people have wished for, for so long finally. A lot of interesting things could happen. You guys know what I do with very limited resources at the moment, so the idea of having slightly more resources would produce some very interesting things.
Quote:
I guess that the reason I have accumulated so many (relatively!) TOJ pieces is that I find them incredibly easy to fit into both my wardrobe and my world-view. There's an ineffable Gorodish-quality to them that I actually find a bit difficult to describe, but I can tell you that all 5 (!) jackets line up very nicely next to my very diverse wardrobe, which ranges from The Gap to Margiela to Rick Owens and Damir Doma. I don't think that TOJ is a universal cure-all, or anything like that, but I do think that for people who have some inkling of what they're after, you basically can't do any better - assuming you like the look of the pieces. I love the idea that I can go from blazer to leather to suede to knit with the same outfit, and that TOJ works itself effortlessly into that mix. Of course, that's a personal preference, and I'm not really one for the "gotta catch 'em all" mentality that some people seem to have towards TOJ, although I'm sure I'll continue to purchase Drew's goods. And just so we're all clear on this, I don't for a second assume that my opinions are representative of even a minority of TOJ patrons - I'm just making an attempt to communicate what it is I appreciate about the brand, the pieces, and the psychology (almost certainly invented, on my part) behind the operation.

With this quote, you've reached TOJ nirvana - we definitely just make a select lineup of things that aren't intended to be (and can't be) a head to toe solution (just yet, at least) - and it's all the more fun when you're combining one of my pieces with a mix of other stuff. It's great to see what people mix in, there's been a big variety. The TOJ's most definitely do not need to wear anybody, they're simply components of bigger pictures. It's just that I hope people see the beauty in being able to use TOJ items to strike things off a list, and do so in perfect form. That's the appeal, in my mind.

And, my favorite pic from that set:
Quote:
post #25109 of 41867
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthese View Post

I, for one, would like to see what Drew could do with a higher markup. I'm not even entirely sure I would be able to afford it if he went a step up, but it would be interesting nonetheless. There's a real disconnect (in my mind) between the legions of varsity addicts that we saw in the early days and a piece like the 4-zip moto, the T1, or the Bball (or the bombers, which I don't own), which I think are in a different league altogether. It would be neat to see another step up, particularly in the wool department. Weirdly, it seems that my tastes are lining up with Drew's more and more these days (I've never met the man, so that's pure conjecture) - not that that sentiment is really worth anything, but it's interesting to me, at least.

There's a lot we could do if we had more fabrics, and well, markup is not a factor in the quality of the clothing, rather we should be referring to pricepoints only. There's just that slightly higher range for us where we could do more if we could get people to buy into slightly more expensive wools and stuff. That may even be possible and we've not tried, but yeah, nicer wool and stuff does exist but it's rather expensive.
There might be some huge changes at TOJ/JC soon, strictly for the improvement - we might take off big time and be able have all those things people have wished for, for so long finally. A lot of interesting things could happen. You guys know what I do with very limited resources at the moment, so the idea of having slightly more resources would produce some very interesting things.
Quote:
I guess that the reason I have accumulated so many (relatively!) TOJ pieces is that I find them incredibly easy to fit into both my wardrobe and my world-view. There's an ineffable Gorodish-quality to them that I actually find a bit difficult to describe, but I can tell you that all 5 (!) jackets line up very nicely next to my very diverse wardrobe, which ranges from The Gap to Margiela to Rick Owens and Damir Doma. I don't think that TOJ is a universal cure-all, or anything like that, but I do think that for people who have some inkling of what they're after, you basically can't do any better - assuming you like the look of the pieces. I love the idea that I can go from blazer to leather to suede to knit with the same outfit, and that TOJ works itself effortlessly into that mix. Of course, that's a personal preference, and I'm not really one for the "gotta catch 'em all" mentality that some people seem to have towards TOJ, although I'm sure I'll continue to purchase Drew's goods. And just so we're all clear on this, I don't for a second assume that my opinions are representative of even a minority of TOJ patrons - I'm just making an attempt to communicate what it is I appreciate about the brand, the pieces, and the psychology (almost certainly invented, on my part) behind the operation.

With this quote, you've reached TOJ nirvana - we definitely just make a select lineup of things that aren't intended to be (and can't be) a head to toe solution (just yet, at least) - and it's all the more fun when you're combining one of my pieces with a mix of other stuff. It's great to see what people mix in, there's been a big variety. The TOJ's most definitely do not need to wear anybody, they're simply components of bigger pictures. It's just that I hope people see the beauty in being able to use TOJ items to strike things off a list, and do so in perfect form. That's the appeal, in my mind.

And, my favorite pic from that set:
Quote:
post #25110 of 41867

Great pics Synthese and thanks for sharing with your experiences with different TOJ leathers. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthese View Post

In that same vein, I am still not entirely convinced of MTM's necessity. The ability to adjust lengths is, I think, the most important function of that system - and something that I find useful as well. 

 

While I agree that this is the case for many, I'd guess that quite a few TOJ customers would also need the possibility to adjust widths. For instance, I have narrow shoulders but more "regular sized" chest/arms. Meaning that there is no chance I could fit a stock size 46 jacket and sizing up enough would also mean that the shoulder seam would also move to wrong place, even if there was still option for adjusting lengths. There's probably some others that are in the same boat with me. I really want to emphasize this because it will ultimately determine will I be able to order TOJ/JC pieces in future. So far I've been in the impression that there might be MTM option in future at least for those who really need it. That would be great.

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