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The new official TOJ thread, 2011 - Page 1255

post #18811 of 40840
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirwest View Post

I wonder if other artishard riders have the same problem?

That's why I was asking... just wanted to confirm.
post #18812 of 40840
don't know if other people got snaps or not. the first one that was posted didn't have any showing.
post #18813 of 40840
look at that sleeve curve
post #18814 of 40840
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VLSI View Post

Was there confusion about how it was supposed to be made or just a mistake?

just a mistake, it happens due to the way things are made. It's like having a dish with a parsley garnish and sending out 100 of them in a row with parsley and then blanking out on the one that requests no parsley, simple thing. Unfortunately like a dish of food like that, the thing has to be scrapped entirely - just as you can't pick out 2000 pieces of minced parsley on a dish of spaghetti or something like that, we can't remove the holes from the leather lapels, so it gets junked.

Needless to say, and I think you could probably see where I am going with this - at this level, this stuff is really the motivation to get out of the MTM game. It's not that the artishard's rider with the two extra snaps that normally come on the MDR is the straw that broke the camel's back, lol, I am speaking in general here - it's my fault, MTM being a failed experiment. The virtues of the MTM idea were/are/will be there, but it was my fault to even allow people to question trifling things like snaps, zippers, details. Naturally, from the outset with the samples, I don't put things on the clothes for no reason, they're there after a decision making process.
The reason I need to leave other people's input on these things behind is not that other people's opinions aren't worthwhile, they are and I respect people's own choices and we've literally wasted away time carrying out people's wishes - it's that it's inefficient time and resource-wise to let people pick apart these things that don't really have any bearing on the piece, the whole reality of it.
Think of it this way - with or without two snaps (this isn't the first time it's happened, and wouldn't be the last time if we continued MTM the way we do it now, see the parsley analogy above) it's not an impassioned 'Drew Keith, these two snaps are ruining my life/fucking my game up hard' thing I get when things like this happen, or when people make requests related to changing my designs... it's rooted in this outlook that TOJ's should be customizable like a plate of food at a restaurant, except that there's not really a legitimate reason for making changes, think about it. It's just a silly 'this does not meet technical specifications' outlook, I think once this breached then I start worrying that people forget that's it's just clothes, something to wear to complement your style. The other facet is that this thread often devolves to making a big deal out of the trifling details, but the real points of the pieces get missed entirely, plus there's lots of things happening within the jackets that people just don't have the eyes to see. So, you can see that there's an imbalance there, and it's unnatural to making clothes, appreciating clothes, etc. tl;dr version of that - slow down for a moment, and think about what the complaint is.


I will still continue to make clothes, but as was mentioned MTM will go by the wayside, it was being manipulated for the wrong reasons. That is a sad end and it will disadvantage a few people, because it was intended to address fit, and not people's penchants for snaps and salad bar'ish tendencies. The response to that is going to be me making OTR clothes in my own cut, my own choice of materials, full size runs, and no lead time involved with making order-made clothing. It's really my job to ensure the best possible quality I can achieve, and there's many constraints in that as well - there's just no time to hold a town meeting on every snap or button. As was mentioned, there may need to be a hiatus as the changeover to a new identity, new clothing designs, and new methods to everything take hold.
post #18815 of 40840
Sad face. Keep MTM, remove customization?
post #18816 of 40840
Thread Starter 
Can't - because I want to keep leather jackets made in Korea from the same leathers we use, and have Dan making them - but I need to lighten his work load a bit and simplify things in order to achieve a higher level. I have more complicated designs I want to make and they will only be achievable if we cut out the audience noise level, to be frank. I also want to make some OTR stuff, made in Japan from Japanese textile that we don't get in Korea, and I'm really into the quality of Japanese textile (as are many on this board) so it's a no brainer, and I've been mentioning this for awhile and planning it out all along - naturally those things have to be made in large lots, and it's a no questions asked thing with those people. They will give me excellent quality, but interference only leads to problems.
post #18817 of 40840
Are most people not happy with just a fixed menu and custom measurements? When I made my first order, it never crossed my mind to ask for possible changes to the design. If everybody had the same A2 off the menu, I am perfectly happy being the n+1 st owner of the same A2. Is fit not way more important than having a jacket that has some minor details that set it apart from others?
post #18818 of 40840
Quote:
Originally Posted by impolyt_one View Post

Can't - because I want to keep leather jackets made in Korea from the same leathers we use, and have Dan making them - but I need to lighten his work load a bit and simplify things in order to achieve a higher level. I have more complicated designs I want to make and they will only be achievable if we cut out the audience noise level, to be frank. I also want to make some OTR stuff, made in Japan from Japanese textile that we don't get in Korea, and I'm really into the quality of Japanese textile (as are many on this board) so it's a no brainer, and I've been mentioning this for awhile and planning it out all along - naturally those things have to be made in large lots, and it's a no questions asked thing with those people. They will give me excellent quality, but interference only leads to problems.

Understandable. As TOJ continues to grow, the lead time went with it since you have limited production capacities. My TOJ1 fits perfectly so I'm hoping to fit into your future pieces.

Speaking of which, take same size in baseball as TOJ1?
post #18819 of 40840
Is it weird that I kind of want a whiskey 4 zip MDR to go with the black one I just received? shog[1].gif
post #18820 of 40840
I'm just happy that this talk of TOJ going away permanently has fizzled out. For the quality/construction/design I don't think you can get anything better than TOJ. You need to feed jawnz to the masses Drew, not food!
post #18821 of 40840
Quote:
Originally Posted by impolyt_one View Post

Can't - because I want to keep leather jackets made in Korea from the same leathers we use, and have Dan making them - but I need to lighten his work load a bit and simplify things in order to achieve a higher level. I have more complicated designs I want to make and they will only be achievable if we cut out the audience noise level, to be frank. I also want to make some OTR stuff, made in Japan from Japanese textile that we don't get in Korea, and I'm really into the quality of Japanese textile (as are many on this board) so it's a no brainer, and I've been mentioning this for awhile and planning it out all along - naturally those things have to be made in large lots, and it's a no questions asked thing with those people. They will give me excellent quality, but interference only leads to problems.

I'm curious about where you take this, since you clearly understand the fashion / retail business and have a great eye for trends etc., but on the other hand I would think that it's a huge challenge to build a RTW streetwear line in the middle market that MTM TOJ currently occupies (ie not high volume fast fashion or high price runway stuff ). In fact I have a hard time coming up with any successful middle market brands that don't benefit from massive economies of scale. Is APC your model? Or do you see yourself as the next Visvim? I guess I don't see why not...
post #18822 of 40840

Speaking from experience, I found that the BB is much tighter around the body than the TOJ1. So I'd size up if you want to be more comfortable.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skitlets View Post


Understandable. As TOJ continues to grow, the lead time went with it since you have limited production capacities. My TOJ1 fits perfectly so I'm hoping to fit into your future pieces.
Speaking of which, take same size in baseball as TOJ1?

 

 

post #18823 of 40840
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by afixedpoint View Post

Are most people not happy with just a fixed menu and custom measurements? When I made my first order, it never crossed my mind to ask for possible changes to the design. If everybody had the same A2 off the menu, I am perfectly happy being the n+1 st owner of the same A2. Is fit not way more important than having a jacket that has some minor details that set it apart from others?

There is a long drawn out explanation to all of this, you study business right? (or am I wrong?) Anyway, TOJ should and maybe shouldn't be a great excerpt in a marketing class text regarding customization. On one hand, customization was said to be the wave of the future for small businesses, it was supposed to play to people's individuality. In the case of TOJ, the idea was there, but it turned out that a) the variables were too many, too insignificant in the grand scheme of things, and those should've been internalized to the point that people would not get the choice to even discuss them, things like the YKK vs Riri zipper debate or the snap variations, these needed to be out of people's minds entirely tbh, and then b) with those things folded into a virtual premix for the product, I do think it would've affected sales somewhat but not to the point that it'd affect the business as a whole. After all, there are people who probably balked at getting a TOJ because the method to getting one is more complicated than usual, way more complicated... so the plus/minus difference in sales lost with the people interested in customization, vs the people who just want to insta-kop - the net effect probably zeroes out, or even skews to the plus side maybe. I think to that, customization for casual clothing may be a failed experiment, more on this following.

Second thing to think about - this is men vs women - men tend to obsess about trivial details, men love to think about specifications and obsess over facts. Men also like to be possessive and be ever right and I'm convinced that there is some sort of true physiological element to that, I am definitely like this - you can physically feel the serotonin or whatever happy juices flow through you when you are 'correct,' so that too feeds a business carrying out custom work. Ever been on a car hobbyist board like Honda-Tech or any of the many similar boards? There are shades of styleforum on those boards as well, it's the male messageboarding mentality.

Anyway, all of this, sounds great, is great, but the downside to all of this? It's the uncomfortable point where business meets art, and I'm sandwiched in the middle between the two here. I just want to make fucking awesome clothes, and so I do (I think, at least) - whereas on the day to day once the product is released, if somebody comes along and wants to buy something but are convinced their idea (let's say, adding two snaps) that conflicts with mine is better - who wins out on that? Definitely the customer, because if they want it and are willing to buy it, we'll sell it to them (as would any other business) - one of my jobs is to pre-empt that long before that ever happens, by architect'ing a system that allows people to make their own choices and still achieve a good product.
Without that system, the thoughtfully arranged menu, we'd end up producing utter shit. Give 100 amateur people an open atelier for making clothes and people on stations to do the real work and make them, and say 'have at it' - 98, 99 if not 100 pieces produced would be fucking crap, probably... but you know what? People would love their own creations too. It's like clay day at pre-school, and everybody would get to take home their piece when the bell rings, etc. The rub there is that I don't want to be the local 'Clay Day provision services, pre-schools everywhere, book now! 788-2343' - this stuff needs to be at a high level. It costs money, it's more than worth that money, it needs to be under the control of the trained and skilled. The final product to be achieved is something that the amateur off the street can't really do from the virtual salad bar, it's something that needs to be left to the kitchen to produce.

More on this later, I think it could become a rant.... I am typing off the cuff here so bear with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skitlets View Post

Understandable. As TOJ continues to grow, the lead time went with it since you have limited production capacities. My TOJ1 fits perfectly so I'm hoping to fit into your future pieces.
Speaking of which, take same size in baseball as TOJ1?

Precisely, it's just a matter of us watching increasing numbers of orders come in and the lead time lengthening over the past couple years, which is not what we want - so we must share around the production and send things out to people who can do a good job. We can continue to put out the spread but naturally the production base widens. It's efficiency, and it's a case of a small restaurant upgrading premises to something bigger, a bigger kitchen to work from, adding hands who specialize in certain disciplines. Pretty simple.

New raglan chart is updated up there - all-new patterns will be cut, so don't use the previous TOJ1 sizing, just measure yourself again or use your body measurements if you have them on file. Charly can assign a size to you, no problem.
post #18824 of 40840
in my operations management class this semester i thought of how toj could fit into that class, more so than i did my marketing classes. from my understanding lead times have gotten pretty stretched out, but would your "staple" pieces fit into the future of toj, in a OTR system? im thinking a peacoat offered in a navy and grey, MDR or 2010DR and moto offered in the basic colours, and having those on the palette as a staple piece of yours? or just whatever your top selling jackets are i think im going more into what my favourites are...
post #18825 of 40840
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by linds_15 View Post

in my operations management class this semester i thought of how toj could fit into that class, more so than i did my marketing classes. from my understanding lead times have gotten pretty stretched out, but would your "staple" pieces fit into the future of toj, in a OTR system? im thinking a peacoat offered in a navy and grey, MDR or 2010DR and moto offered in the basic colours, and having those on the palette as a staple piece of yours? or just whatever your top selling jackets are i think im going more into what my favourites are...

well, in theory - yes, of course they fit in - because they're designs, not business cases.
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