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Job Referenced:Ethical Question - Page 3

post #31 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by ter1413 View Post
did i miss where the OP said that he works with the friend? it can be a personal reference....

That's also something I've been a little bit confused about. If there is no work history between the two, I'm not sure what the point of a reference is. I also don't see why you can't be glowingly positive in a purely personal reference - how would you know what they're work habits are if you've never worked with them?
post #32 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Carlos View Post
This is why you should always keep in good relations and regular contact with your references, and why you should always make sure they are comfortable being your references. Your friend didn't take this very crucial step. You should feel no guilt, therefore, about the situation. I like the suggestion of writing a good reference but stating in the reference that you have a personal friendship. The hiring party (HR, hiring manager, or otherwise) will read between the lines.

The other thing to consider is that your recommendation carries basically no weight unless you are a bigshot in your friend's industry. No one will care too much what your rec says. Your rec will not be the make-or-break factor in your friend's application process.

Finally, don't write bad recs. They are a legal minefield. When asked about former employees or associates who sucked, I simply state "I can verify that this person worked with me from X date to Y date in the position of Z." That is the universally recognized code for a non-endorsement. It is more than sufficient. I wouldn't suggest doing this to a good friend, obviously.

This is good.

Personally, I've given references for friends who've had a checkered history - one in particular stands out. The references he gave when we hired him were all glowing, but none really touched on his attitude, which was his downfall. He just got to be a pissy guy, and things didn't work out for him.

When I took calls for a reference for him, I was careful to sell the high points (which were valid), and when they asked for any weak spots, I was again careful to disclose that we're a hard bunch to get along with, so my comment wouldn't necessarily be valid across the board. Turned out he landed in a good role with some good people so I was glad that happened. He's hard-working, but not perfect.
post #33 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by tj100 View Post
That's also something I've been a little bit confused about. If there is no work history between the two, I'm not sure what the point of a reference is. I also don't see why you can't be glowingly positive in a purely personal reference - how would you know what they're work habits are if you've never worked with them?

the pt of a personal reference is that many employers look to see what type of person they are hiring...ie, is he/shee a dooooousche. that's why they screen your myspace/facebook/etc pages.
post #34 of 93
I was in a similar situation once. I have a deadbeat friend -- one of my closest friends from childhood, an extremely bright guy who just never got his act together -- who asked me to be a reference for him when he applied to his first job out of law school. Knowing that I am not a lawyer, and that I do not know what makes a good lawyer, and that nobody in the legal profession would take my reference all too seriously, I happily wrote a sterling rec for the friend. I talked about how bright he is, what a great analytical mind he has (totally the truth), and so forth. All personal qualities, but no real mention of professional skills or accomplishments. Why? Because I'd never worked with the guy. I made up some bullshit about how he'd helped me out on some transactional analysis informally, but he had never been my employee or coworker per se. He got the job and promptly fucked up. He left, on his own accord, a year into it. Nothing I wrote ever came back to haunt me. Now, had he been my coworker or in my industry, I would have emphasized in the letter that I am his personal friend and am writing in that capacity.
post #35 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
He cuts corners, lies, and wouldn't put stealing past him. He takes the least responsibility for his actions as he possibly can.

Should I feel bad about not recommending him?

I would feel bad about being friends with a liar and a thief. shrug

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Evans View Post
Loyalty comes first. You ain't much of a friend if you don't help him get the job and maybe better his life. Who cares what some stranger thinks of you. Help your friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Evans View Post
Don't you think your friend would be offended that you are doing this? Just help him get the job and then it's out of your hands. No one is coming for you if he fucks up at the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Evans View Post
Don't you think your friend would be offended that you are doing this? Just help him get the job and then it's out of your hands. No one is coming for you if he fucks up at the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Evans View Post
Absolutely and when your friends ask you for favors, it's sort of expected that you will do it as they would do it for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Evans View Post
This is completely wrong. No one is coming to look for you for giving a good reference to a bad employee. Companies don't contact the reference again after the fact. Once you give the reference, you no longer have any involvement or responsibility at all.

Not to mention the fact that quite often an employee is great at one company/job, but unfortunately is doing poorly at his new job. A reference isn't a guarantee - all you are you saying is while this dude worked for me, he did a great job. End of story. Nobody is promising that he will also do a great job for you, since he did for me.

References are overrated anyway. People don't give bad references now, because the employee could sue you. The laws have changed in this regard. All you can really do is give a great reference or simply acknowledge that the employee worked for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Evans View Post
And again:

Not to mention the fact that quite often an employee is great at one company/job, but unfortunately is doing poorly at his new job. A reference isn't a guarantee - all you are you saying is while this dude worked for me, he did a great job. End of story. Nobody is promising that he will also do a great job for you, since he did for me.

Maybe he did walk on water at his previous job, but hates working for you and your company. It could be you and not him or just that this job isn't for him. But he could leave your job and walk on water for someone else. See how this works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Evans View Post
Absolutely - your friends comes first. Who the fuck cares what the HR person thinks of you if you lie for your friend. I am actually surprised that people are debating this here. If you are not loyal to your friends and help them whenever you can, they are better off without you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Evans View Post
Who the fuck cares what Company B thinks - he's your friend and that is the priority. I have never in my life heard someone getting burned in their career, because he gave a great reference to a bad employee or for an employee that just didn't work out (even if he was great at the previous job).

Your involvment ENDS the second you hang up the phone with the person you are giving the reference to. Nothing is coming back to haunt you or bite you in the ass. You are simply helping your friend and that is the way it should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Evans View Post
What if your friend just has a hard time with employment for valid reasons and isn't a fuck up. I have a friend who has ADD and anxiety problems that sometimes have come into play with his job and he has been fired. If I can at least try to help him get a new job, so he can avoid being homeless - I will do that.

By the way, lawyers lie every single day and that includes you (without even knowing you) - it's part of the profession and everyone knows this, so you may want to dial it down on the ethical obligations speech.

You seem to have a lot invested in this. Are you the friend?
post #36 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellum View Post
I would feel bad about being friends with a liar and a thief. shrug



















You seem to have a lot invested in this. Are you the friend?

Funny, but no. I am just big on loyalty. I would do anything for my friends and I would hope they do the same.
post #37 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Evans View Post
What if your friend just has a hard time with employment for valid reasons and isn't a fuck up. I have a friend who has ADD and anxiety problems that sometimes have come into play with his job and he has been fired. If I can at least try to help him get a new job, so he can avoid being homeless - I will do that.

Perhaps being a friend means helping your friend get treatment for his ADD and anxiety. I don't see the benefit in covering up his illness if it's only going to result in him being fired again at some point down the road. This will just be another lost job for him, and a loss of credibility for you.

I had an attorney friend who I worked with who was an alcoholic. He stole money from a client, got a DUI and was suspended for a short time. He then went through rehab and started working as an attorney again after his suspension was lifted. He was upfront about his illness and he was an excellent attorney. If someone were to call me and ask me for a reference for him I would absolutely endorse his legal skills, but I could not and would not cover up his suspension. Fortunately, I don't think he would try to hide it.

Obviously, this kind of professional career is very different than if my friend were applying to be a line cook at Denny's.

Quote:
By the way, lawyers lie every single day and that includes you (without even knowing you) - it's part of the profession and everyone knows this, so you may want to dial it down on the ethical obligations speech.

Thanks.
post #38 of 93
on a side note...every company ive worked for had strong rules on this. If asked, all that can be said is if they are eligible for rehire or not. If they are NOT eligible, the reason cant be given. At least thats how it was for the places i worked...im sure it probably differs on personal reccommendations.
post #39 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey_birdman View Post
If he's a friend I would simply choose not to complete the recommendation. Don't give him a bad recommendation, and don't lie and give him a good one, just forget to send back the paperwork. It's the only way to come out of this.

Were I in this position, this is how I'd deal with it. But if this friend would make such a bad employee, why did you agree to be a reference in the first place? It seems you've just put yourself into a very uncomfortable position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Evans View Post
Absolutely - your friends comes first. Who the fuck cares what the HR person thinks of you if you lie for your friend. I am actually surprised that people are debating this here. If you are not loyal to your friends and help them whenever you can, they are better off without you.

You sound fairly desperate for friends. I suppose that some of us just simply think differently than you do. For some of us, being honest is a higher moral prerogative than getting a lazy, lying possible thief a job.
post #40 of 93
I'm actually torn on this. I think, in this case, I would basically say "this person is my friend, I have never worked with him, but I consider him a good personal friend" or something like that.

on the other hand, when I really needed a job, a woman who, back 15 years ago, I had helped out get from a position of a secretary to a sales position, from which she was then able to advance, was asked to give a reference for me. she said something very neutral that screwed me over. and that really, really pissed me off.
post #41 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher View Post
Were I in this position, this is how I'd deal with it. But if this friend would make such a bad employee, why did you agree to be a reference in the first place? It seems you've just put yourself into a very uncomfortable position.



You sound fairly desperate for friends. I suppose that some of us just simply think differently than you do. For some of us, being honest is a higher moral prerogative than getting a lazy, lying possible thief a job.

What uncomfortable position - you will never know after the fact. Once you finish giving the reference, your involvement is over forever.

No, I am a good friend who is loyal and who will help them when they need it. I don't care what some HR jackass on the phone thinks of me, but I care about my friends. Good to know that you would sell your friends out when they need your help the most.

Some people just have a bad employment history for whatever reason and if that person is my friend - I am not going to hold it against them. So yes, we think differently.
post #42 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter View Post
I'm actually torn on this. I think, in this case, I would basically say "this person is my friend, I have never worked with him, but I consider him a good personal friend" or something like that.
I'd say something similar to this. I try to talk about the qualities of the person that I've seen him exhibit. Honestly, I can't say that I'd endorse a person for employment who is a liar, cheat, and thief. I don't keep friends who display these behaviors.
post #43 of 93
I give glowing endorsements to all of my friends regardless of what I think about them personally. I want them to succeed professionally and if they screw up on the job then it's on them but I won't stand in their way. Thankfully I have great friends.
post #44 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by CouttsClient View Post
I give glowing endorsements to all of my friends regardless of what I think about them personally. I want them to succeed professionally and if they screw up on the job then it's on them but I won't stand in their way.

Thankfully I have great friends.

Exactly.
post #45 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by ter1413 View Post
how so? unless the position is within your industry..who gives a flyning fluff!

When I initially read this I thought the OP's friend was applying to the OP's company or a similar industry. Hence why I said that. If you work in i banking and he is applying to Taco Bell, go ahead.
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