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Just finished a 20 day water fast - Page 6

post #76 of 198
Thread Starter 
I'm pretty sure fasting is not going to give me oral candidiasis. The white on my tongue is more likely from the build up of sulfurous compounds created by bacteria. It's a pretty normal and common occurrence amongst people who have have fasted.
post #77 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mm84321 View Post
Just an update...

Since finishing my fast a week a go I can still feel the effects my body was experiencing during the fast, albeit on a lesser scale. I think my body still hasn't fully transitioned out of the fasting state, as I still have the white film on my tongue and I haven't been able to consume very large portions of food (even though I tried to on christmas night).

So far I have gained back 2 pounds.

Could be due to deficiency in B vitamins, zinc, or iron.
post #78 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by cold war painter View Post
AFAIK, it was established decades ago that caloric restriction extends lifespan in rodents and yeasts but it's still not proven in primates. Work on drugs that mimic caloric restriction is ongoing.

There are probably better sources, but a quick search turned up this abstract from Baltimore/Johns Hopkins.

Of course, that's not to say that fasting for x days is of any particular benefit.

The evidence also supports the idea that people with above average BMI's live longer, so go figure.
post #79 of 198
I am not defending what the OP says about cleansing toxins and the like but it is established that low calorie diets increase longevity and I have seen nothing to indicate that fasting is damaging to the body...20 days seems extreme but I doubt it was harmful to him. I occasionally fast for 24-36 hours (usually after a period of bad diet) and I think it is beneficial even if some (or maybe most) of the effects are psychological. I could never do an extended fast because I don't have room in my schedule for days when i am to tired to get out of bed, but i think this poster's discipline is admirable.
post #80 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by cold war painter View Post
AFAIK, it was established decades ago that caloric restriction extends lifespan in rodents and yeasts but it's still not proven in primates. Work on drugs that mimic caloric restriction is ongoing.

There are probably better sources, but a quick search turned up this abstract from Baltimore/Johns Hopkins.

Of course, that's not to say that fasting for x days is of any particular benefit.

20 year primate study out of UW Madison regarding 30% caloric restriction: http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/22977/

Agreed that fasting is not proven beneficial.
post #81 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
As far as the distilled water business, that stuff really isn't all that healthy to drink. It'll actually leach minerals out of your body, since all the trace elements have been removed. Using reverse osmosis purified water would be a better idea if you're concerned about it. The whole "toxins" thing isn't backed up by evidence, but we can say for sure that you're screwing with your electrolyte balances, your bone calcium, etc by fasting and drinking only distilled water.

Agree with you 100% on the view of the distilled water topic.
post #82 of 198
When people talk about fasting and "toxins" or "detoxification" it is a real and useful process, but it has to be done a particular way. Fasting does very, very little to detoxify the body, although if done right it may have other benefits.

The process of "detoxification" involves the liver. There are two steps, collectively called Phase 1 and Phase 2 detoxification. Phase 1 involves the Cytochrome P450 enzymatic reactions, a process generally known as biotransformation. To not get too complicated, something that is considered a toxin to the body, whether it was made by the body or came from outside of the body (through food, breathing, pharmaceuticals, etc) goes through phase 1 detoxification. This process creates a reactive site on the molecule. At this point, the molecule is a "reactive intermediate" and it is usually more toxic than the original compound, potentially doing cellular damage or affecting RNA or DNA.

The reactive intermediates from phase 1 detoxification need to be handled in phase 2. Phase 2 detoxification involves conjugation of the reactive intermediates with other molecular structures with the goal of neutralizing the deleterious effects of the intermediates from phase 1 on the body and allowing these compounds to be effectively and safely excreted in urine or feces without harming the GI/GU tracts. Phase 2 is a more difficult part of detoxification to manage because the molecules that are attached to the reactive intermediates are excreted, so a constant resupply of them (sulfur, methyl groups, etc) are needed.

Things to keep in mind is that phase 1 detoxification can be enhanced by doing almost anything to the body, particularly reducing caloric intake. It is not a process that is dependent on raw materials. This is why so many people feel like crap when they "detoxify" or fast. They THINK it's "the body getting rid of toxins" but in fact, the caloric reduction makes the cytochrome P450 process more efficient and the person is actually creating more and worse toxins for their body to have to deal with. And, since they aren't eating, or if they are it's lemonade and apple cider vinegar or whatever fad is big at the time, they aren't able to resupply the compounds lost during the phase 2 conjugation reactions, so the person is basically poisoning themselves, giving themselves diarrhea, headaches, joint pain, etc.

To truly "detoxify" the body one needs to eat particular foods that are high in things like sulfur, for example (although there are at least 6 different conjugation reactions, all requiring different raw materials), and plenty of calories so that the body can perform BOTH phase 1 AND phase 2 reactions. This can be done emphasizing organic vegetables and a little fruit while minimizing exposure to environmental pollutants, all the byproducts of meat, etc etc. This isn't necessarily the best thing longterm, but when done for 21-30 days, it has a very positive effect on the body.

This is FAR different from starving oneself, though, or doing some weirdo fad diet. I've done this several times myself and I actually eat MORE than I do when I'm just eating my regular diet. Average weight loss my patients have experienced doing this is in the 15 pound range, over 21 days, and that's eating 5-6 meals per day of veggies and some fruit, getting protein from whey or rice protein sources for the first 10 days, and then limiting protein to 12 ounces of lean and clean for the rest of the 21 days. No grains at all during this time, although I do allow for them to eat 1/2 cup of cooked rice/wild rice or 1 cup lentils.
post #83 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Taki View Post
You're wrong. People living thousands of years ago lived to advanced ages. Ever hear of Adam, Noah etc ?
post #84 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Taki View Post
You're wrong. People living thousands of years ago lived to advanced ages. Ever hear of Adam, Noah etc ? They lived to 900+ years and yes it's real years because as generations passed the lifespans became shorter and shorter until the max age of man was listed as 120 yrs. And it's funny but no one has lived passed that since. Obviously there were different races of men and primates on earth at one time and the primitive ones lived the short lifespans while the hybrids lived long. Over time as they mixed the lifespan of the hybrids decreased. It's all a matter of genetics and not diet.

epic. fucking epic.
post #85 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by brimley View Post
20 year primate study out of UW Madison regarding 30% caloric restriction: http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/22977/

Thanks, that's interesting.
post #86 of 198
Fewer calories generally = less food, or less crappy food, certainly, hence fewer free radicals formed in the body, hence less RNA and DNA damage, hence longer lifespan.

On another note, who would WANT to live 900 years? If you seriously think the Bible's use of time suggests that people in Moses' time were living 900+ years, you're stupid.
post #87 of 198
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiro75 View Post
When people talk about fasting and "toxins" or "detoxification" it is a real and useful process, but it has to be done a particular way. Fasting does very, very little to detoxify the body, although if done right it may have other benefits.

The process of "detoxification" involves the liver. There are two steps, collectively called Phase 1 and Phase 2 detoxification. Phase 1 involves the Cytochrome P450 enzymatic reactions, a process generally known as biotransformation. To not get too complicated, something that is considered a toxin to the body, whether it was made by the body or came from outside of the body (through food, breathing, pharmaceuticals, etc) goes through phase 1 detoxification. This process creates a reactive site on the molecule. At this point, the molecule is a "reactive intermediate" and it is usually more toxic than the original compound, potentially doing cellular damage or affecting RNA or DNA.

The reactive intermediates from phase 1 detoxification need to be handled in phase 2. Phase 2 detoxification involves conjugation of the reactive intermediates with other molecular structures with the goal of neutralizing the deleterious effects of the intermediates from phase 1 on the body and allowing these compounds to be effectively and safely excreted in urine or feces without harming the GI/GU tracts. Phase 2 is a more difficult part of detoxification to manage because the molecules that are attached to the reactive intermediates are excreted, so a constant resupply of them (sulfur, methyl groups, etc) are needed.

Things to keep in mind is that phase 1 detoxification can be enhanced by doing almost anything to the body, particularly reducing caloric intake. It is not a process that is dependent on raw materials. This is why so many people feel like crap when they "detoxify" or fast. They THINK it's "the body getting rid of toxins" but in fact, the caloric reduction makes the cytochrome P450 process more efficient and the person is actually creating more and worse toxins for their body to have to deal with. And, since they aren't eating, or if they are it's lemonade and apple cider vinegar or whatever fad is big at the time, they aren't able to resupply the compounds lost during the phase 2 conjugation reactions, so the person is basically poisoning themselves, giving themselves diarrhea, headaches, joint pain, etc.

To truly "detoxify" the body one needs to eat particular foods that are high in things like sulfur, for example (although there are at least 6 different conjugation reactions, all requiring different raw materials), and plenty of calories so that the body can perform BOTH phase 1 AND phase 2 reactions. This can be done emphasizing organic vegetables and a little fruit while minimizing exposure to environmental pollutants, all the byproducts of meat, etc etc. This isn't necessarily the best thing longterm, but when done for 21-30 days, it has a very positive effect on the body.

This is FAR different from starving oneself, though, or doing some weirdo fad diet. I've done this several times myself and I actually eat MORE than I do when I'm just eating my regular diet. Average weight loss my patients have experienced doing this is in the 15 pound range, over 21 days, and that's eating 5-6 meals per day of veggies and some fruit, getting protein from whey or rice protein sources for the first 10 days, and then limiting protein to 12 ounces of lean and clean for the rest of the 21 days. No grains at all during this time, although I do allow for them to eat 1/2 cup of cooked rice/wild rice or 1 cup lentils.

I am transitioning out of my fast with a diet very similar to what you are describing, with a few exceptions. After 1 week of fruits and vegetables I introduced some lean protein in the form of small fish (brisling, kippers). What is your reasoning for feeding patients rice and lentils? Both of which are inflammatory, devoid of nutrients, packed with lectins and phytates, and provide the body with nothing but a cheap source calories. If for the purpose of protein, why not clean sources of animal protein?
post #88 of 198
^ bump for answer..
post #89 of 198
You missed it. The rapture happened yesterday, and these guys were part of the 144K. Or they're dead, with very clear skin.

BTW - why would the body create toxins?
post #90 of 198
As for the allowance of 1/2C rice or 1C lentils per day.... it's because they are warm and taste generally good to most people. It's a psychological thing.
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