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post #271 of 473
I have not read anything here, but all I noticed is the mentioning of Investment Banker didn't cause the crisis part.

Let me clarify on that part, by "Investment Banker" the guy probably mean true investment banking (M&A, IPO, etc.)

Printing paper (as how any asset back securities used to work) is really structure job and how much risk to hold instead of sold off (even if they weren't able to) is really trading decision (and firm wide risk appetite). It is in that sense Investment Banker didn't cause the crisis. Unless you want to argue that some firm had structure and private side debt issuing both under traditional investment banking instead of S&T.

As to the view point whether Investment Bank cause the crisis or really just a everyone is just as guilty is different point of view. I don't think there will be too many people say bank is 100% free of guilt in that case.

The % number there in reality is somewhere between 0% and 100% depends on who you talk to and both end are equally wrong in my opinion for different reason.

Now go back to whatever you guys were discuss before
post #272 of 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
I have not read anything here, but all I noticed is the mentioning of Investment Banker didn't cause the crisis part. Let me clarify on that part, by "Investment Banker" the guy probably mean true investment banking (M&A, IPO, etc.) Printing paper (as how any asset back securities used to work) is really structure job and how much risk to hold instead of sold off (even if they weren't able to) is really trading decision (and firm wide risk appetite). It is in that sense Investment Banker didn't cause the crisis. Unless you want to argue that some firm had structure and private side debt issuing both under traditional investment banking instead of S&T. As to the view point whether Investment Bank cause the crisis or really just a everyone is just as guilty is different point of view. I don't think there will be too many people say bank is 100% free of guilt in that case. The % number there in reality is somewhere between 0% and 100% depends on who you talk to and both end are equally wrong in my opinion for different reason. Now go back to whatever you guys were discuss before
At least someone knows what an investment banker is/does. Sorry ShaneB, come back when you know the difference between banking, trading and a window teller at a bank.
post #273 of 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
I have not read anything here, but all I noticed is the mentioning of Investment Banker didn't cause the crisis part.

Let me clarify on that part, by "Investment Banker" the guy probably mean true investment banking (M&A, IPO, etc.)

Printing paper (as how any asset back securities used to work) is really structure job and how much risk to hold instead of sold off (even if they weren't able to) is really trading decision (and firm wide risk appetite). It is in that sense Investment Banker didn't cause the crisis. Unless you want to argue that some firm had structure and private side debt issuing both under traditional investment banking instead of S&T.

I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but when you look at the P+L, at most notable firms with IBD operations, s&t generates the vast majority of revenue and profit. For any bulge bracket, it's basically a giant capital markets operation with a tiny IBD group tacked onto the side. Not to mention that the business has evolved such that no one wants to hire a lead underwriter that doesn't have a balance sheet. So it's true that the advisory people didn't cause the crisis, but it's difficult to extricate their activities from the larger firm.

That said, I think the IBD salaries are largely justified, so this is just an aside.
post #274 of 473
56k plus 5k signing bonus plus 16k and change bonus in 2005. Biotech. Fresh out of school with BS in Biomedical Engineering.
post #275 of 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashaansafin View Post
Jesus F. Christ are you serious? Do you get all your news from the NYT??? Do you even know what INVESTMENT BANKERS DO??????


The general public is so stupid its nauseating.

+1, I doubt Shane has any idea what the industry does, much less how critical it is.

It is hard to have complicated discussions with people who think in generalities and blanket statements.
post #276 of 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by w.mj View Post
I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but when you look at the P+L, at most notable firms with IBD operations, s&t generates the vast majority of revenue and profit. For any bulge bracket, it's basically a giant capital markets operation with a tiny IBD group tacked onto the side. Not to mention that the business has evolved such that no one wants to hire a lead underwriter that doesn't have a balance sheet. So it's true that the advisory people didn't cause the crisis, but it's difficult to extricate their activities from the larger firm.

That said, I think the IBD salaries are largely justified, so this is just an aside.

That's why I am not saying the firm, firm is certainly to blame for whatever reason to hold so much risk and leverage themselves to the way they did. What I am saying is when people in the industry say Investment Banker, it's the investment bankers, not the sales, not the structure, not trading, not coverage, just the investment bankers. That's the point I am trying to make.

Whether Investment Banker's salary are justified or not, don't know, never work on the private side, always been in S&T, though fundamental driven buy side guys usually went through IB first.

They certainly pull the hours for sure, and under lots of abuse. Pretty sure most of them wouldn't do it if the money were half of what it is. You also got lots of engineer/science/math guys doing finance just because it pays so much better (count myself in), somewhat sad fact...

p.s. at least IBD's fee is non-risk PnL mostly, I suppose in that sense it's more "transparent", that itself can be taken as more justified. Trading PnL require hedge, whether you flat the book daily, how much risk retention you're willing to warehouse, etc., getting paid on that and consider how the firm is funding the particular desk and how much capital needs to be set aside is a lot trickier for sure...
post #277 of 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaO888 View Post
I think you'd be surprised if you saw how LITTLE IB analysts accomplish in their 20 hour "work" days.

Isn't this a thread about salaries, i.e. not including bonuses? Bonuses can be extremely difficult to forecast and vary pretty widely year to year, especially if you look at the last 5 years.

Well, you know nothing about me, so you'd be wrong in this case. Why do SOME people not understand what it means when you put the word "some" in a sentence?

Reread my original post, you have contradicted nothing.
post #278 of 473
Hey lets get this back on topic and move that shit into CE (since finger pointing and the blame game don't really seem to involve business or career advice)

I was 42k (well, up to 43k a few months in) with overtime kicking in at 35hr/wk. Wasn't a single week with no OT so I rounded out the year with 60k total plus a 5k bonus. I was promoted right away so I can't say what kind of raise someone would expect or if that bonus was above normal due to the fact that my performance was good enough for promotion after only a year.

This seemed to work out well as I know some of our competitors pay 53-56k starting with no overtime (which would blow imho) and likely a smaller bonus although many got a signing bonus which my company does not give--although I am pretty sure none of them paid signing bonuses to new hires this past year (if they hired at all).
post #279 of 473
57k +3 at a good consulting firm in 06 -- back in school now moving and starting at a top 3 consulting firm soon (hooray!!)

Turned down banking offers (where i summer interned) - that industry has some of the worse abuse and hours out there...they deserve thier pay and can keep it (PS - 100k post bonus 1st year analyst are very common - though the $$ fluctuates with the market)
post #280 of 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post
+1, I doubt Shane has any idea what the industry does, much less how critical it is. It is hard to have complicated discussions with people who think in generalities and blanket statements.
There's always subtle undertones of haughtiness when these types of things are discussed; it seems bankers like yourself are so arrogant in dismissing other people and all under the guise of 'ignorance'. You're not fooling anyone; petty insults doesn't constitute an argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
I have not read anything here, but all I noticed is the mentioning of Investment Banker didn't cause the crisis part. Let me clarify on that part, by "Investment Banker" the guy probably mean true investment banking (M&A, IPO, etc.) Printing paper (as how any asset back securities used to work) is really structure job and how much risk to hold instead of sold off (even if they weren't able to) is really trading decision (and firm wide risk appetite). It is in that sense Investment Banker didn't cause the crisis. Unless you want to argue that some firm had structure and private side debt issuing both under traditional investment banking instead of S&T. As to the view point whether Investment Bank cause the crisis or really just a everyone is just as guilty is different point of view. I don't think there will be too many people say bank is 100% free of guilt in that case. The % number there in reality is somewhere between 0% and 100% depends on who you talk to and both end are equally wrong in my opinion for different reason. Now go back to whatever you guys were discuss before
Yeah you're right and I take your point, perhaps, if I were writing an essay or going into some depth about why I'm critical I would have paced my prose a little a better - but I'm not, a made general comment; but let me give you an example: In the 90's and the emergence of the Lloyds crisis when individuals offered criticisms of that insurance market they weren't greeted with accusations of ignorance simply because they didn't differentiate between brokers or names - criticism was against the insurance market as a whole, because ultimately it operated as a whole, even though the brokers merely operated within the remit of traditional brokering role. The exact same principle applies in this sense: when anyone says - and god knows many people have said it despite the inane posturing of some bankers here - that they are critical of the banking industry they're referring to it as a whole. It's difficult to extricate one facet from another in the investment bank as they're all part & parcel of the general operations of the firm as a whole, just like it was in insurance. Mine was an off the cuff remark, and to decry all non-bankers as stupid and ignorant is idiotic bamboozling.
post #281 of 473
My salary was so ridiculously unwarranted at 17 that I got myself into trouble. One reason why I have a teen graduating this month and I'm only 36 now. Some of you need to be grateful for what you've got and if anything, I would suggest not going into [too much] debt too early. I gotted where Im iz on a GED with felonies.
post #282 of 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by NORE View Post
My salary was so ridiculously unwarranted at 17 that I got myself into trouble. One reason why I have a teen graduating this month and I'm only 36 now.

Some of you need to be grateful for what you've got and if anything, I would suggest not going into [too much] debt too early. I gotted where Im iz on a GED with felonies.

WTF is this? You have a GED and a felony?
post #283 of 473
I always wondered what it'd be like to have super-young parents; I think it would be kind of cool.
post #284 of 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaneB View Post
There's always subtle undertones of haughtiness when these types of things are discussed; it seems bankers like yourself are so arrogant in dismissing other people and all under the guise of 'ignorance'. You're not fooling anyone; petty insults doesn't constitute an argument.

Ahh, refreshing. More generalities and blanket statements, with some incorrect assumptions based on nothing mixed in. Guess what, I'm not a banker. Had you known that, would you have called me haughty and arrogant? I wonder if there is bias involved.

Fooling anyone into what?

Petty insult? No. I've just gathered from your rants that you have a certain perception that is not tied to reality, and I'm calling you on it.
post #285 of 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkblaze100 View Post
57k +3 at a good consulting firm in 06 -- back in school now moving and starting at a top 3 consulting firm soon (hooray!!)

Turned down banking offers (where i summer interned) - that industry has some of the worse abuse and hours out there...they deserve thier pay and can keep it (PS - 100k post bonus 1st year analyst are very common - though the $$ fluctuates with the market)

mentor me.
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