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Originally Posted by DWFII 
^ Sure and I agree...up to a point. I'll tell you a story that informed my thinking some 40 years ago... I lived on a small piece of property when my wife and I were first married. We raised chickens and geese and hogs and goats and rabbits--small "homestead" as it was called back then. We "husbanded" them, we slaughtered and butchered them. Next place over lived a young man and his wife and children. They were what was known back then as "hippies." And held views not too dissimilar to what we hear in this discussion. One day the husband accidentally backed over one of his childrens kittens, crushing the lower spine and hind quarters. His children were crying, my children were crying, the kitten was crying...piteously. It was clearly in pain. But the neighbor could not bring himself to put the little thing out of its misery. Not only was he too "squeamish," he couldn't dirty his hands. So he came next door to ask me to do it. It was a sad task. I am sensible and sympathetic to the suffering of other creatures and I love little kittens as much as the next person. It was one time in my life when I came closest to going ballistic on another person and smashing their face in. If you're too squeamish to kill you should be too squeamish to eat. Because in the end it is the same thing. Placing the responsibility for killing another living creature on someone else is not ethical. It is, in fact, the antithesis of ethics. "Do your own dirty work" is the essence of ethical behaviour.
Meat and animal products are necessary for the human diet. Plants are not sufficient, their "proteins" not the same as meat protein, not to mention the lack of vitamins and minerals in a vegan diet--like B vitamins, calcium, etc. Not everyone factory farms, imo, and my food comes from ranchers who treat their animals properly. Basic economics 101 for you: you treat the animals well while alive (in Alberta, they free range in the mountains, with goats and sheep also acting as natural lawn mowers for which ranchers are paid, thus free range). They grow up lean, with more muscle mass. They taste better, and are better for you. Ranchers who do this fetch a premium for their product also; people are motivated to do that which is in their best interest, being rational actors, so if you believe in what you yourself are saying, support hard-working ranchers and farmers who don't factory farm, as I do. Quite simple, really. Problem: lack of land and price of food. Meat is a necessary food item, not a luxury, and should not be priced out of the hands of most people. If you mean to say that factory farms should be inspected and regulated, I couldn't possibly agree with you more. Fact: vegan diets actually aren't the best for you (this is a medical fact), though we in North America eat too much red meat (could we do with less red meat and more fiber on our plate? doctors say this, but this doesn't in any way detract from the fact that it's ethical to use animals for food and clothing, etc). As to the "gospel", it tells us so and always has, and on this point it is actually backed by science. If you are Jewish, it also tells us to treat animals with respect, not to run over them with our cars or do bull-fighting/dog-fighting/cock-fighting (which are cruel blood sports), or otherwise prolong their suffering. They are here for us to use for legitimate needs, like food and clothing, and if you want to give up your right to use them, that's fine, but nobody has a right to tell anyone else what to do. This is true for ethical hunting, too. Support things with your wallet, people. Base your opinion on science, not fantasy or conjecture. Natives have more respect for the planet and all living things on it than most, and always have, as do ethical hunters (who follow Native practices, with Natives having constitutional rights, too). Ranchers and farmers are hard-working and properly treat what ends up on our plate. They are finding it tough to make a living--competition for land, and cheap factory-farmed product, turning to other animals such as ostrich, venison to make a living, because they refuse to factory farm. Support them, the Natives and ethical hunters. Simple really. Kittens and serial killers have nothing to do with it. That's just well silly talk, having no bearing whatsoever on your own arguments, and even less on the subject which is can leather be ethical. Of course it is, which I've said before and reiterate: using the whole animal not only makes good economic sense, but treats it with respect. As an aside, when my father moved to the country estate from the city home during the Depression, he adopted one of the baby animals. He gave it a name and raised it. He had no problem eating all the other animals when cooked for dinner---nor did he have any issue as a child when my grandfather gave people in the county food and materials off the land in exchange (i.e., jobs to people who otherwise were starving). He had a huge problem, however, when it came time to eat the animal he had himself raised and cared for. I won't tell you what it was, but I will tell you it wasn't a kitten, nor was it a human being either. (There is a reason why ranchers don't name their charges, and might say my father who grew up on an estate during the depression when people had to grow their own food, etc. learned this the hard way). There are no farms or country estates in NYC or Toronto or London or Paris or Tokyo or .... people go to the supermarket. That the estates of old are gone doesn't change a thing, and sounds to me like you're "preaching" that everyone become a farmer, DWFII ... which is, well, insane. There are laws against cruelty to animals--they're based on the Judaic-Christian bible actually (as most laws are), and tells us to be responsible and to respect our food. What more do you want? That said, no kittens or humans were injured in the making of this post, nor do I support: veal, blood-sports (bull-fights/dog-fights/cock-fights) or other "cruelty" to animals. Food and clothing are legitimate uses of animals, whether farmed/ranched or ethically hunted. This is all. tl/DR: get the real facts, based on real science not conjecture (or false "preachings") and vote with your wallet in accordance with your own conscious. And remember: you are what you eat (so choose lean meats over fatty meats, and you'll stay lean, thus continuing to fit into your suits 
(just kidding). S'sly, your argument isn't logical, though; as to discussions about microwaving pets? Running over kittens? Some people know some very scary people, I agree. (I don't like murderers or those who torture animals for (sadistic) pleasure either, DWFII: electric fences sound about right for those types, but there's no connection b/w them and the OP's question). Anywho, ... myself, NOT a Buddhist. (Is that what you mean--i.e. Buddhist world-view? Depending on the sect most don't kill insects so don't eat meat either; if that's what you mean, then that would make sense). Me, different world-view: I love steak medium-rare, and I had roast caribou tonight--as hunted by Natives and sold to market--which I washed down with red wine. As it was cold, I wore a fur-lined, shearling coat. My car has leather seats, and my shoes are also leather. Stylishly warm and timeless, not to mention well fed. But I've never dug a ditch nor built a car, nor have I picked produce. I haven't sheared sheep, skinned/tanned hides nor traveled by dog sled in the Arctic to catch my own seal or caribou (though a trip I look forward to one day). Then, we don't all grow our own apples, build our own houses, perform brain surgery, etc., whilst killing our own dinner and making our own clothes and shoes (see: Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations). For the record, DWFII, I've hunted. Most game meat's in restos and/or supermarkets today, and a good thing, since you won't find cow farms much less wild animals in the cities to hunt, not to mention it's a crime today to walk your cow on a city street, so ... tl/DR: S'sly, to each their own world-view (including the Buddhists, though I think it depends on the sect, doesn't it? ... All good. 
