Lateness/tardiness policies...

Originally Posted by tj100

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I think the question is, in this particular role, is there a reason that 9:00 is "on time"? Or is it just an arbitrary time that you *think* people should be at work by? If there's a reason, then it's part of job performance and you need to address it; if it's arbitrary, you need to think about why it's really important.
Two reasons: 1. We have clients in the UK, which means that when meetings are necessary, they have to be before noon EST. These guys have busy schedules and it can be difficult to find time; even moreso when I'm not comfortable starting meetings at 9:00 because I don't have confidence people will be here on time. 2. Client perception is important. You can do a great job, but have a client perceive you as lazy and unprofessional if they're calling at 9:10 and you're consistently not there to take their calls. It's not so much that it's the time I think people should be at work by; it's the time that most of the working population considers to be within standard business hours.

well after my company was bought out, I lost my flex-time arrangement... I also have to deal with a 4 hr commute every day via public trans because the office moved as well.

I am required to be at my desk from 8-5. Now to make my commute practical, I do typically cut some corners (my train gets in at 8 and I'll usually take the 4:50 home). I appreciate that most of the management turns a blind eye to this (as they should, I do work on the train, on evenings, on weekends, holidays)...

They do drive home the point that just because its tolerated, it is not my rite. The bulk of my meetings/appointments are scheduled for 8am and 4:30pm. I have never missed an appointment in my schedule, and I'm sure if I did any slack I have would be eliminated.

Setup situations where it does affect his performance if he's not there at 9 sharp... more than just the potential of missing a call.

Originally Posted by Douglas

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I'm going by the standard where I work. In that scenario (YMMV), which would you rather have (keeping in mind your hypothetical workplace is not a production line, and doesn't deal with the public)?

Employee #1: A performer (always delivers top-quality work when you need it, good attitude, pitches in when his/her colleagues need help, etc.) who occasionally (4-5 times/month) comes in 10-20 minutes late, or has to leave work early to get the kids, but is willing to work through lunch, skip breaks to make up time (but can't stay late).

Employee #2: An ok employee (meets expectations, but nothing special) who always shows up and leaves on time (whatever that is at your workplace), and if they are late they stay late to make it up.

Personally, I'll take #1 as long as they continue to perform, because if I treat him/her well they'll go the extra mile for me when I really need it. And if I treat them well, they will continue to perform.

To be considered a professional in anything means a whole lot more than just meeting or exceeding expectations as far as the actual work is concerned. In my book if you can't be to work on time then you are unreliable. If you dress inappropriately for the job it doesn't matter to me how good your work is. It shows contempt and no respect which is counterproductive. If you're conduct in the office and in a lot of cases outside the office is deplorable then it doesn't matter to me how good your work is. Who wants to hear about their business as the one that does good work but a bunch of dirt bags work there?

To me much of the arguments about it being OK to be late for work comes from people who think they are self entitled for one reason or another. I got bad news for you. It doesn't work that way. Once you sell your time to someone then you are obligated to play by their rules. If you don't like it then figure out how to own the place and then you get to make the rules. You'll figure out real quick how it really works then. The rules you once despised will most likely be implemented by you so you can keep the ship heading in the right direction.

Originally Posted by cross22

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Wow at some of the responses here. We have an incredibly high performance office environment and we are very very flexible. People need to show up on time for meetings (even one minute late is unacceptable) but besides that you just need to be reachable via your cell and email, most people won't even come in if they don't have meetings.
+1 This is how I run my business and we've been very successful. I don't care where someone gets the work done as long as it gets done. If a client needs to reach someone they call their cell phone or when they call the office the person at the desk will route the call to their cell. They are ALWAYS "in" the office. All of this talk about NEEDING to be in the office only works for some environments. From my observations, more offices could use a giant dose of flex-time.

Originally Posted by Crane's

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To be considered a professional in anything means a whole lot more than just meeting or exceeding expectations as far as the actual work is concerned. In my book if you can't be to work on time then you are unreliable. If you dress inappropriately for the job it doesn't matter to me how good your work is. It shows contempt and no respect which is counterproductive. If you're conduct in the office and in a lot of cases outside the office is deplorable then it doesn't matter to me how good your work is. Who wants to hear about their business as the one that does good work but a bunch of dirt bags work there?

To me much of the arguments about it being OK to be late for work comes from people who think they are self entitled for one reason or another. I got bad news for you. It doesn't work that way. Once you sell your time to someone then you are obligated to play by their rules. If you don't like it then figure out how to own the place and then you get to make the rules. You'll figure out real quick how it really works then. The rules you once despised will most likely be implemented by you so you can keep the ship heading in the right direction.

See my post below yours.

My employees understand what I expect from them. Performance is what I expect. Not for them to sell me the hours between 9am-5pm.

Originally Posted by Crane's

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To me much of the arguments about it being OK to be late for work comes from people who think they are self entitled for one reason or another. I got bad news for you. It doesn't work that way. Once you sell your time to someone then you are obligated to play by their rules. If you don't like it then figure out how to own the place and then you get to make the rules. You'll figure out real quick how it really works then. The rules you once despised will most likely be implemented by you so you can keep the ship heading in the right direction.

From my perspective, it's a question of whether you are selling hours or work product. Selling hours is not really being paid like a professional. Your approach lends itself to a 9 to 5 workday. If you ding somebody for showing up at 9:15 every morning, good luck expecting them to answer an email at 10:00 at night. Once you've established that the expectation is 9 to 5, that minimum suddenly trends to become the maximum. If you want hourly employees, and wish to treat them as such, don't be surprised when that's what you get.

In the case of the original situation, if you schedule a meeting, particularly with clients, for 9:00am, it's definitely part of the job to be at that meeting. If the employee is late, that's a major ding on their performance. Same goes for if you schedule a meeting with a client at 5:00am. Attending client meetings and being presentable are definitely core expectations, no?

When it comes to 'it looks bad to clients' - I'm not so sure. Maybe I have low expectations from years in finance, but I wouldn't call anybody outside my office before 10:00am. In fact, I think it's rather rude to call in the first few minutes of the day (except in an urgent situation, obviously).

So far, I haven't really seen anything except your own psyche that makes it important for this person to get into the office promptly at 9:00.

Originally Posted by Crane's

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To be considered a professional in anything means a whole lot more than just meeting or exceeding expectations as far as the actual work is concerned. In my book if you can't be to work on time then you are unreliable. If you dress inappropriately for the job it doesn't matter to me how good your work is. It shows contempt and no respect which is counterproductive. If you're conduct in the office and in a lot of cases outside the office is deplorable then it doesn't matter to me how good your work is. Who wants to hear about their business as the one that does good work but a bunch of dirt bags work there?

I think you're narrowing the definition of what I would consider 'work product'. If you have a job that requires you to be punctual, like working in a retail environment, then being punctual is inherently part of your work product. You can't be considered a good employee if you're not punctual.

Likewise, if you dress inappropriately, in some roles (client facing) it's a real problem. If a talented software engineer wants to wear pyjamas to work, fine by me.

It only shows contempt and lack of respect for the job if it is, in fact, somehow related to job performance.

Originally Posted by CouttsClient

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I don't care where someone gets the work done as long as it gets done. If a client needs to reach someone they call their cell phone or when they call the office the person at the desk will route the call to their cell. They are ALWAYS "in" the office.

+1 Once you're "in the office" (wherever that is) you need to be accessible, whether by phone or BB or whatever. If you're expecting something urgent to drop within a short time (i.e., within an hour or so), it's also reasonable IMO to ask your staff to stay close to their desks or otherwise be available, and be ready to jump in when needed.

Bottom line: If you're at work, I shouldn't have to hunt you down if I need to talk to you.

Originally Posted by CouttsClient

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+1 All of this talk about NEEDING to be in the office only works for some environments. From my observations, more offices could use a giant dose of flex-time.
Exactly, it really depends on the office. The work I do depends on what is being requested from upstairs. I always come in before 9...but unless I have continuing work, I rarely have anything to do until later when other people roll into the office, do their morning things, and figure out what they want. There have been pushes made at meetings to get people at my level to at least be in the office by 9 so they are available when assignments start coming in (since some people can't seem to figure out how to get breakfast before they arrive at work...) Despite the general requirement to be in at 9, it was absolutely no problem when I asked to shift my hours back a little one day a week to fit in a team practice. Shifting hours the opposite direction in our office is much more difficult. We always need people who can stay late...but if you wanted to work 8-4 instead, it would be harder to get away with since there is nobody there to give you work (except when you are on ongoing tasks...which is not common). edit: of course this kind of stuff only applies to normal days...having an 8-4 schedule doesn't mean anything on a day where you have to stay until 8PM except that you now worked 12 hours instead of 11

Originally Posted by otc

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Shifting hours the opposite direction in our office is much more difficult. We always need people who can stay late...but if you wanted to work 8-4 instead, it would be harder to get away with since there is nobody there to give you work (except when you are on ongoing tasks...which is not common).

+1

There is a widely-held assumption (with some merit, IMO) that employees will have amorous relations with canines if left to their own devices.

In my family, we charge each other $1/min lateness.

I guess it all depends on what type of work you do.

I've never been in a field where walking in the door whenever you wanted too was OK as long as you do good work or as long as the work gets done. More power to those of you that can.

I was recently talking to my brother who made a career out of the military (communications) and he was telling me that he can approve days of sick leave for people that work for him, civilians and junior military members. You could have knocked me over with a feather! When I was in even if you were sick you still had to report to the morning formation and then you got to go to sick call.

I guess now it's easier to see why I agree with Crane's.

Sounds like good managers are as rare as good employees to me.

My 2 cents. If it works for the office give him some flex time but tell him he has to put in the time he is paid for. No showing up 20 min late, taking an extra 20 min breakfast break and then leaving at the same time as everyone else.
If giving him that sort of flex time does not work, fire his ass.
This from a guy who is absolutely not a workaholic and looooves pushing how late I can come in.