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OFFICIAL Game of Thrones Thread - Page 28

post #406 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynard369 View Post
Be interesting to get some stats on how books sales have picked up since the buildup and eventual release of the show.

book 2 and book 3 were both sold out when i tried to get them.
i had to order the 3rd one.
there's definitely a bit of a feeding frenzy.
i've no doubt the timing of the 5th book's release was a marketing ploy to coincide with the show.
post #407 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynard369 View Post
Nor do many of the works that are thought of as "classics" of English literature, but that doesn't stop them from being canonized.

What books would you name for examples? 99% of the so-called classics Ive read really are very fine.

Even with the cannonized authors I don't particularly enjoy- guys like John Irving, Norman Mailer or Robert Penn Warren- I can appreciate their craft is on a different level than Martin, who I actually enjoy the hell out of.
post #408 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennglock View Post
What books would you name for examples? 99% of the so-called classics Ive read really are very fine.

Even with the cannonized authors I don't particularly enjoy- guys like John Irving, Norman Mailer or Robert Penn Warren- I can appreciate their craft is on a different level than Martin, who I actually enjoy the hell out of.

I wouldn't argue that GRRM's writing is on par with an author like Mark Twain, for example, but my point is that the so-called classics are often celebrated more because they're old than any actual literary merit. For example, Fenimore Cooper isn't any better than certain contemporary historical fiction writers, but his work is considered to be a staple of the early-American literary tradition.
post #409 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post
You would be laughably wrong. I enjoy GRRM's books (or "works", I suppose, if we're trying to dress up their literary merit). If you mean you enjoy them as much as almost anything else you've read, well and good. But if "as good" is supposed to mean anything other than that, it's an indefensible assertion. Martin tells a good yarn, which is not to be scoffed at. But nothing about his works, either individually or collectively, makes a ripple on the surface of the pool of literature.


What does it mean to "make a ripple on the surface of the pool of literature?"


To me, it seems like a lot of the so called "classics" are classics because only people with graduate degrees in English even pretend to enjoy reading them. It's an Emperor's New Clothes phenomenon, only the very best can appreciate these works, so they must be great.
post #410 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Carlos View Post
His influence is an objective measure, not a subjective one. Therefore, to make the statement that he is "overrated," one would need to argue that his influence exceeded his actual literary merit. While that is, ultimately, a subjective argument, it is a subjective argument that requires objectivity (influence) to be met with equally strong counterargument (influence was undue because of X, Y, and Z). That counterargument can't hinge on a single, subjective opinion about how much you do or do not enjoy the process of reading him.

In order to make the argument that Shakespeare was "overrated," you need to choose a stronger and more measurable approach, and then substantiate it. Something like:

1) Shakespeare's influence exceeded his literary merit because other authors of his era were better and more accomplished. (This then requires substantiation).
2) Shakespeare's influence exceeded his literary merit because the degree of his influence was actually quite superficial. In essence, he was a good storyteller but not a good writer. (This then requires substantiation).
3) Shakespeare's influence exceeded his literary merit because he didn't influence anyone of merit. (Again, substantiation required)
4) Shakespeare's influence exceeded his literary merit because everyone he influenced gave him too much credit relative to his actual talent. (Substantiation required; textual analysis required)
5) Shakespeare's influence exceeded his literary merit because he was one of the only surviving authors of his time, and he lived in an influential age. (Need data or evidence on this).
6) Shakespeare's influence exceeded his literary merit because he was extremely popular, and thus more widely published than his contemporaries; popularity does not necessarily equate with merit; see: Twilight for example. (This is actually a fairly strong argument, but still needs evidence)

Etc.

The point is, there are probably an infinite number of ways to structure the argument using measures that, while not totally objective, at least contain some logical and analytical basis. The argument that he is overrated because Joe Schmo in Boise, Idaho doesn't care for him is a fairly weak argument. Even within the realm of subjective arguments, there are such things as strong subjective arguments and weak subjective arguments. Given the strength of the objective measure in this debate -- his influence -- we would need a very strong and well-reasoned subjective counterargument. This has not been forthcoming.

Perhaps he is just talking off hip young teachers in (B-)movies whom just want to reach those kids and are always reading out loud from ol' shakey's work in a carrying voice. Do you think there are too many of those scenes in movies?
post #411 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai View Post
What does it mean to "make a ripple on the surface of the pool of literature?"


To me, it seems like a lot of the so called "classics" are classics because only people with graduate degrees in English even pretend to enjoy reading them. It's an Emperor's New Clothes phenomenon, only the very best can appreciate these works, so they must be great.

This is definitely true. Some authors that are considered important contributors to English lit, such as Stephen Crane, Jack London, Charlotte Gilman, are almost unreadable. The Open Boat and The Yellow Wallpaper are two works in particular that made me seriously contemplate suicide (Had to read for my English degree).

I mentioned Fenimore Cooper earlier, and while he's certainly not a great writer, his work is far more readable than the writers mentioned above as well as writers such as Jane Austen, the Bronte's, Hemingway, Faulkner, Melville, Hawthorne, etc.
post #412 of 4901
Okay, almost done with the book....wow. Don't want to spoil anything but there is hope for the Starks after all, and his name is Robb. Dammmmnnnnn what a badass kid.
post #413 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynard369 View Post
This is definitely true. Some authors that are considered important contributors to English lit, such as Stephen Crane, Jack London, Charlotte Gilman, are almost unreadable. The Open Boat and The Yellow Wallpaper are two works in particular that made me seriously contemplate suicide (Had to read for my English degree). I mentioned Fenimore Cooper earlier, and while he's certainly not a great writer, his work is far more readable than the writers mentioned above as well as writers such as Jane Austen, the Bronte's, Hemingway, Faulkner, Melville, Hawthorne, etc.
"Readability" isn't the be-all, end-all of artistic expression in written literature, anymore than "prettiness" is the be-all, end-all of artistic expression in painting, or "watchability" in film. Were that the case, some hawt lesbian sex story would be the crowning achievement in English letters, Playboy centerfolds would surpass Picasso's nudes in artistic merit, and Fast 5 would be considered the most brilliant film ever made. I'll freely admit that it's a role chore slogging through some of the classics in American or English literature, but that doesn't diminish their artistic merit (at least in many cases). Bad writing and non-entertaining are not the same thing.
post #414 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by javyn View Post
Okay, almost done with the book....wow. Don't want to spoil anything but there is hope for the Starks after all, and his name is Robb. Dammmmnnnnn what a badass kid.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Lulz
post #415 of 4901
Just wait
post #416 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Carlos View Post
"Readability" isn't the be-all, end-all of artistic expression in written literature, anymore than "prettiness" is the be-all, end-all of artistic expression in painting, or "watchability" in film. Were that the case, some hawt lesbian sex story would be the crowning achievement in English letters, Playboy centerfolds would surpass Picasso's nudes in artistic merit, and Fast 5 would be considered the most brilliant film ever made. I'll freely admit that it's a role chore slogging through some of the classics in American or English literature, but that doesn't diminish their artistic merit (at least in many cases). Bad writing and non-entertaining are not the same thing.
I never said it was, but it's certainly a critical element. Many canonical writers are boring to read, but the other facets of artistic value of their work are significant enough that they are (and should be) considered classics. Others are equally dull/boring but without enough redeeming qualities to make them worth reading. For example, Jack London. Early American writer who was big into the whole man vs. nature theme. Gets a fair amount of attention by the American lit community, but probably shouldn't. His writing is, for the most part, incredibly boring, and it is nothing special in terms of composition.
post #417 of 4901
Thought of by you, maybe. Why don't you give us some good straw men? Sent from my DROID PRO using Tapatalk
post #418 of 4901
Did you read any troll stories in your English class? Sent from my DROID PRO using Tapatalk
post #419 of 4901
Or not. Sent from my DROID PRO using Tapatalk
post #420 of 4901
Oh my god I remember Jack London, had to read that bullshit all through gradeschool and middle school. OH MY GOD THE DOGS ARE COLD LETS WRITE A NOVEL
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