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OFFICIAL Game of Thrones Thread - Page 219

post #3271 of 4860
Sandor is awesome and has been dumbed down too much. His relationship with both the Stark girls is some of the more solid writing in the books.
post #3272 of 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by scurvyfreedman View Post

Some people refer to them as San-San. Sandor and Sansa have a very complicated relationship. His drunk speeches to her are one of the highlights of A Clash of Kings. It's in one of those speeches, after she thanks him (thank you Ser) for either saving her from the Kingsguard beating at the orders of Joffrey or the rape by the mob, he tells her how he was burned and why he hates Knights - "bugger on your Ser"; that she should give up her fanciful belief that Knights protect the weak - his brother was made a Knight after burning his face for playing with a wooden knight toy. His brother, who has raped and killed innocents his whole life and probably killed their parents so he could inherit the Keep and properties. At that point you start to feel for him. He follows it up with- if I ever find out you told someone about this I'll kill you.----

---And yet they stole that explanation and gave it to Littlefinger in Season 1. If Sandor knew Littlefinger knew that, Littlefinger would be dead. Nobody knows that story except Gregor and Sandor.

But, yes, he saves her from beatings, rape, probable death, and offers to rescue her by taking her home to Winterfell. He also tells her to forget her fantasies and see the world for what it is. All he wants in return is a song.

*Sandor is my 2nd or 3rd favorite character. It bounces back and forth b/w him and Ser Barristan for #2. Arya being #1.

Yeah I dunno how I feel about those shippers... although in the books I think the Hound is in his 20s so it is a tiny bit better. I think he's my second favorite character too btw, that's funny you mentioned that. I don't know many others who like him a lot.
post #3273 of 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post

Sandor is awesome and has been dumbed down too much. His relationship with both the Stark girls is some of the more solid writing in the books.

cheers.gif
post #3274 of 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Davos. The guy takes the high road every time. So do all of the Stark men, really.

I'm not giving it to the Starks. Ned kept a bastard in his wife's house for years - came home from war with one who was just as old as his trueborn son with Catelyn. Even if it was a lie, that's a terrible burden to place on his wife - she believed her entire marriage that he broke his vow with her despite his reputation as the "honorable Ned Stark."

Robb broke his marriage pact. While it was because he took Jeyne Westerling's maidenhead and didn't want to dishonor her, it was dishonorable to break his marriage pact. He also went to war in the Westerlands and Riverlands out of vengeance causing tremendous death and destruction rather than just declaring his independence as King in the North.

Davos hasn't seemed to make any morally wrong choices from my recollection. I'd have to think about it more.

Jon has always been dancing on the head of a pin. He's definitely not purely good. For the Watch!
post #3275 of 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by scurvyfreedman View Post

I'm not giving it to the Starks. Ned kept a bastard in his wife's house for years - came home from war with one who was just as old as his trueborn son with Catelyn. Even if it was a lie, that's a terrible burden to place on his wife - she believed her entire marriage that he broke his vow with her despite his reputation as the "honorable Ned Stark."

Robb broke his marriage pact. While it was because he took Jeyne Westerling's maidenhead and didn't want to dishonor her, it was dishonorable to break his marriage pact. He also went to war in the Westerlands and Riverlands out of vengeance causing tremendous death and destruction rather than just declaring his independence as King in the North.

Davos hasn't seemed to make any morally wrong choices from my recollection. I'd have to think about it more.

Jon has always been dancing on the head of a pin. He's definitely not purely good. For the Watch!

I mentioned his cheating up a bit higher but I mean Davos also spent most of his life as a criminal. It's not like he was a murderer or anything, but smuggling is probably at least a moral gray area.
post #3276 of 4860
Thread Starter 
Sam Tarley, Bran Stark, Hodor, Gilly, Brienne.
post #3277 of 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Sam Tarley, Bran Stark, Hodor, Gilly.

Shit sorry if anyone saw that, I forgot about spoilers. Here we go...
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Sam breaks his vows, Bran wargs into Hodor (the biggest no-no for his kind, and he knows Hodor hates it), Hodor, and Gilly is a pretty good one, touche. I guess all I could say about her is that she hasn't really done a ton in the story either way (it's more like stuff happens to her) so the answer for her might be more like "n/a." Saying that she abets Sam's vow-breaking is a stretch, but in a pinch you could go down that road. Great answer though.
post #3278 of 4860
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlm4114 View Post

Sam breaks his vows, Bran wargs into Hodor (the biggest no-no there is for his kind, and he knows Hodor hates it), Hodor, and Gilly is a pretty good one actually, touche. I guess all I could say about her is that she hasn't really done much in the story either way so her answer might be more like "n/a." Good call though, I'll noodle on that for a while.

Is breaking his vows "bad?" It could be quite possible that by keeping those vows evil is actually either done or allowed to be done when breaking them could prevent or stop evil.

I'll give you Bran warging into Hodor.
post #3279 of 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Sam Tarley, Bran Stark, Hodor, Gilly, Brienne.

Samwell is obviously exaggerating about his father's abuse. He's the Cowardly Lion. I'm sure his father was terribly disappointed with him, but GRRM has established the unreliable narrator - they're all unreliable. I like Samwell, but I don't believe him completely. His fear and passivity have caused problems. The delays in travels lead to a death or two. Acts of omission can be as bad as acts of commission.

Brandon is too young to judge. His biggest tests are ahead of him.

Hodor is a simpleton.

Gilly cries too much.

Brienne is the perfect Knight. Protects the weak. Honors her vows. But, now she's in a spot where two vows are diametrically opposed. We'll see how she deals with it. She's Ser Duncan the Tall's great grand daughter methinks.
post #3280 of 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Is breaking his vows "bad?" It could be quite possible that by keeping those vows evil is actually either done or allowed to be done when breaking them could prevent or stop evil.

I'll give you Bran warging into Hodor.

What is the spoiler policy here btw? Nothing past the show?

I think that's the point about Sam. Also, I'm talking about when he Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
sleeps with Gilly, what are you referring to? I don't see how not sleeping with Gilly would lead to anything bad happening... I mean I don't blame the guy, but Aemon spelled out the letter of the law a couple of nights ago.
post #3281 of 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlm4114 View Post

Shit sorry if anyone saw that, I forgot about spoilers. Here we go...
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Sam breaks his vows, Bran wargs into Hodor (the biggest no-no for his kind, and he knows Hodor hates it), Hodor, and Gilly is a pretty good one, touche. I guess all I could say about her is that she hasn't really done a ton in the story either way (it's more like stuff happens to her) so the answer for her might be more like "n/a." Saying that she abets Sam's vow-breaking is a stretch, but in a pinch you could go down that road. Great answer though.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Pio has a good point about the vow-breaking. And if one is going to be truly absolute about it, then of course nobody is "purely" good or evil. They're intended to be human beings. But while Sam may be annoying and cowardly [at least in unimportant ways], etc. , I think it's pretty hard to argue that he's not a fundamentally good person. I think the same can largely be said about Bran. I also think that at some point, if you're going to be fair, you need to choose what values really make a good person. You fault Sam for oath-breaking, but you fault Ned for an overly-rigorous (and perhaps overly prideful) adherence to the concept of honor. That said, I should add that I'm enjoying your close and thoughtful discussion.
post #3282 of 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlm4114 View Post

I mentioned his cheating up a bit higher but I mean Davos also spent most of his life as a criminal. It's not like he was a murderer or anything, but smuggling is probably at least a moral gray area.

Good point. By the point he enters the story he's reformed, so I didn't consider his past. But, yes, he's a gray character like all the others. Except Brienne to this point they're all gray or haven't had enough personal choice to be rated any which way. With the three obviously bad actors who aren't grey enough to be discernible from evil - Joffrey the least evil of the bunch, Ramsay, and Gregor - and then there's Gregor's men and the Brave Companions including the two from the Black Cells.
post #3283 of 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlm4114 View Post

What is the spoiler policy here btw? Nothing past the show?

I think that's the point about Sam. Also, I'm talking about when he Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
sleeps with Gilly, what are you referring to? I don't see how not sleeping with Gilly would lead to anything bad happening... I mean I don't blame the guy, but Aemon spelled out the letter of the law a couple of nights ago.

I think you have the spoiler policy right - anything from the books that was not been revealed on the show gets spoiler tags.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
As to the bolded part -- if that were bad, Connie and Edina would be the illest m-f-ers around. rimshot.gif Oh, and hi again stitches!
post #3284 of 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Pio has a good point about the vow-breaking. And if one is going to be truly absolute about it, then of course nobody is "purely" good or evil. They're intended to be human beings. But while Sam may be annoying and cowardly [at least in unimportant ways], etc. , I think it's pretty hard to argue that he's not a fundamentally good person. I think the same can largely be said about Bran. I also think that at some point, if you're going to be fair, you need to choose what values really make a good person. You fault Sam for oath-breaking, but you fault Ned for an overly-rigorous (and perhaps overly prideful) adherence to the concept of honor. That said, I should add that I'm enjoying your close and thoughtful discussion.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Thanks for the nice words; I've been hanging around SF quite a bit, but just started posting recently, and I could talk about ASOIAF all day. To be clear, I'm not personally advocating any of the these little put-downs; I'm just trying to point out that they're usually there. I agree completely that Sam is fundamentally a good person. But he took a vow of celibacy when he joined the Watch -- a vow that he personally took/takes quite seriously -- and he broke that vow... because he happened to be stuck in a closet for a month (or however long that cruise is, don't quote me on that) with the only girl who's ever even given him the time of day, and it just so happens that he also saved her life and comforted her through her separation from her infant son. I mean, in that situation I think even Varys would've ended up getting some action. It's undoubtedly a "letter of the law" thing, and that's not a strict liability offense in my book... but it is for some people, like Aemon in the show the other night.

Additionally, it should be mentioned that Sam's passivity is not entirely harmless. When he and Aemon are standing on the deck of that boat in the middle of that driving storm, Sam (who himself is freezing) stands there and essentially watches a blind, feeble centenarian catch the pneumonia that will kill him a few days later. I'll refrain from discussing the extent (if any) of Sam's duty to act (in deference to your expertise, natch...) but if you go back and re-read that scene it's kind of tough to read because Sam is standing there noting to himself how increasingly urgent it is to get Aemon out of the rain ("Egg, I dreamed that I was old...") I love the guy though, don't get me wrong.

My original point a bit earlier in the thread was just that it seems to me that people tend to zero in on figuring out whether or not someone is "pure" anything, which suggests that lots of people consider it to be an important question to answer, because, to speculate a bit, I think some people are uncomfortable walking through all of the questionable or unfortunate decisions that their favorite characters make (or fail to make), and/or are uncomfortable considering certain details that may (even if it's just a teensy bit) mitigate the "evilness" of their most loathed. Of course, you're ultimately right, and making the correct judgment -- Sam is a fundamentally good person, and that's the bottom line (Stone Coldhands...?), and arguing otherwise requires untenable mental gymnastics. TL:DR, I wasn't trying to argue otherwise, I was just trying to point out that these characters are real -- and therefore flawed -- people, because, as you said, no one is actually purely good or evil. I could probably keep rambling but I'll cut the cord there.
post #3285 of 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlm4114 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Thanks for the nice words; I've been hanging around SF quite a bit, but just started posting recently, and I could talk about ASOIAF all day.

snip.

Glad to have you around. We have a small band of book readers here who get into some fun discussions, some who complain there are too many pages with no content except spoiler tags who only want to discuss the show, and institches who wants to be spoiled.

I opened the door earlier, so here are my favorite characters - both featured and minor:

1- Arya
2- Sandor Clegane
3- Barristan Selmy
4- Tyrion
5- Wyman Manderly
6- Jon Connington with a bullet
7- Brienne
8- Jaime
9- Strong Belwas
10- Davos

I also like the Queen of Thorns, Randyll Tarly, Stannis, all of the Umbers, Jojen, Moqorro, the Kindly Man, the Elder Brother, Ned, and a host of others.

Oh, how I liked Jon Snow until ADwD.
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