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OFFICIAL Game of Thrones Thread - Page 165

post #2461 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustChris View Post

You forgot Joffrey- pure shit. No redeeming qualities whatsoever.

absolutely. pure shit. absolute evil human being.
post #2462 of 4901
Joffrey and Ned are pretty much the only two one-sided major characters in the book. Maybe Brienne.
post #2463 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDFS View Post

Yes, but to my credit, I did not know I responded to such a narrowly defined argument. I was merely talking about the show/books. I guess Loras is one of several characters that are in the same league as J.L. when it comes to the sword.

When I think about it Jaime's prowess in battle too is always assumed by the other characters. Not much recent proof of his skills either.

It's strongly implied that Loras is much better with the lance than the sword. I think Jaime even says something about it, "I'd crave your brother up like a turkey" or whatever.


Robert Baratheon in his prime probably could have taken Jaime.
post #2464 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

has sex with sister fathering children. kicks child off wall with intent to kill. tries to have injured child murdered. jamie is a piece of shit.

not to mention his general shit attitude and manipulation/lack of regard for others, but that alone would just make him a political player. not the piece of shit he is.

Jaime isn't as worthless as you might think. I consider him a classic example of what scurvyfreedman was saying.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
He hasn't shown much yet, but losing his hand is a spectacular wake-up call. His entire life, he defined himself through his ability with a sword. Having that removed in a moment forces him to begin reassessing who he is, and more importantly, who he wants to become. Jamie develops into one of my favorite characters in the books. I hope that the show can handle his growth into a fully formed person with flashes of genuine decency and honor.
post #2465 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by aravenel View Post

Joffrey and Ned are pretty much the only two one-sided major characters in the book. Maybe Brienne.

Ned is not one sided. He is also a mixed character.

Just using things revealed in AGoT and ACoK, trying to avoid later reveals/theories-

Ned brings a bastard into his house immediately upon getting married; refuses to tell Catelyn anything about Jon Snow's origin. While they ruined Cat on the show two episodes ago (among other character destruction), she was miserable the entire time knowing that Ned probably loved someone else and may have secretly wanted to be with that other woman and not her. Nobody other Lord is known to have kept a bastard in his household treated equal to his high born children. Perhaps as a high level servant, but most just provided for the bastard or perhaps didn't completely outside of the household. Obviously Dorne is a little different.

He made an oath to Lyanna ("Promise me Ned.") But he had already made an oath to Catelyn. He's an oath breaker himself.

Ned didn't want Dany killed. Didn't want Joffrey, Marcella, and Tommen put to death by Robert. That's all very honorable. They were all children. Although on the other side Daenerys was married and was considered a woman grown by Westerosi law. Her death, while tragic, would probably save lives.

Ned also sent Lord Beric and a host to put Gregor Clegane to death and declared Tywin to be outside of the King's Peace. He could have stopped short of that, because he essentially started the war with Tywin at that point.

Ned also told something to Ashara Dayne which caused her to throw herself from her tower to her death.

Ned is all about Honor, but he's not all good. Just like Stannis is all about Justice, but he's not all good. On the show they make him considerably worse, and weaker.

And, regarding Jaime's incest, the Targaryens married brother to sister for generations. It was not outside of the norm for highborn Westrosi. Meanwhile, part of the blood feud in the Blackfyre Rebellion was two half-brothers fighting over a half-sister.
post #2466 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustChris View Post

Jaime isn't as worthless as you might think. I consider him a classic example of what scurvyfreedman was saying.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
He hasn't shown much yet, but losing his hand is a spectacular wake-up call. His entire life, he defined himself through his ability with a sword. Having that removed in a moment forces him to begin reassessing who he is, and more importantly, who he wants to become. Jamie develops into one of my favorite characters in the books. I hope that the show can handle his growth into a fully formed person with flashes of genuine decency and honor.

well,maybe he changes. but for now, i think he is a shit bird.
--

SV - great breakdown, your book knowledge is really great. regarding the incest, yes the Targaryens were known for it, but it seems generally very looked down upon and not something people there do. then again, the whole thing is a fantasy novel. the crux of the issue for me is the persistance in killing the boy.
post #2467 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

well,maybe he changes. but for now, i think he is a shit bird.

Jaime Lannister sends his regards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

the crux of the issue for me is the persistance in killing the boy.

Then again, he was saving the lives of three with the attempted murder of Bran. And, I'm not so sure he were persistent. We don't know (at least at this point in the show) who hired the cutthroat. He only pushed Bran from the tower.

The things he does for love.
post #2468 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by scurvyfreedman View Post

Ned is not one sided. He is also a mixed character.

Just using things revealed in AGoT and ACoK, trying to avoid later reveals/theories-

Ned brings a bastard into his house immediately upon getting married; refuses to tell Catelyn anything about Jon Snow's origin. While they ruined Cat on the show two episodes ago (among other character destruction), she was miserable the entire time knowing that Ned probably loved someone else and may have secretly wanted to be with that other woman and not her. Nobody other Lord is known to have kept a bastard in his household treated equal to his high born children. Perhaps as a high level servant, but most just provided for the bastard or perhaps didn't completely outside of the household. Obviously Dorne is a little different.

He made an oath to Lyanna ("Promise me Ned.") But he had already made an oath to Catelyn. He's an oath breaker himself.

Ned didn't want Dany killed. Didn't want Joffrey, Marcella, and Tommen put to death by Robert. That's all very honorable. They were all children. Although on the other side Daenerys was married and was considered a woman grown by Westerosi law. Her death, while tragic, would probably save lives.

Ned also sent Lord Beric and a host to put Gregor Clegane to death and declared Tywin to be outside of the King's Peace. He could have stopped short of that, because he essentially started the war with Tywin at that point.

Ned also told something to Ashara Dayne which caused her to throw herself from her tower to her death.

Ned is all about Honor, but he's not all good. Just like Stannis is all about Justice, but he's not all good. On the show they make him considerably worse, and weaker.

And, regarding Jaime's incest, the Targaryens married brother to sister for generations. It was not outside of the norm for highborn Westrosi. Meanwhile, part of the blood feud in the Blackfyre Rebellion was two half-brothers fighting over a half-sister.

Right--Ned is all, 100% about honor. Everything he does is about that. With the sole exception of Jon Snow, which is the glaring exception--but frankly I think it's the exception that proves the rule. Were it not for that, it would belittle the question of where Jon Snow comes from and what his role will be.

The results of his actions based on this can be bad--he was terrible at the Game of Thrones and lost his head for it. But he always acted with honor.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
We don't know what the oath to Lyanna was--it could have been to keep Jon Snow alive, to hide him, which is what he did.
post #2469 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

well,maybe he changes. but for now, i think he is a shit bird.
--

SV - great breakdown, your book knowledge is really great. regarding the incest, yes the Targaryens were known for it, but it seems generally very looked down upon and not something people there do. then again, the whole thing is a fantasy novel. the crux of the issue for me is the persistance in killing the boy.

Jaime has become one of my favorite characters.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
He's obviously terrible early on, but losing his hand makes him question everything he was, and his changes and journey are to me one of the most interesting and important in the book.

Totally my opinion, but I also think he's the only Lannister that is going to survive the books.
post #2470 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by aravenel View Post

Jaime has become one of my favorite characters.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
He's obviously terrible early on, but losing his hand makes him question everything he was, and his changes and journey are to me one of the most interesting and important in the book.

Totally my opinion, but I also think he's the only Lannister that is going to survive the books.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
What about little Myrcella? She's got a fighting chance given that she's under Doran's protection. What about the cadet branches? The Lannisters of Lannisport? Lancel? Or will he fight Ser Robert Strong wearing the Faith's colors even in his weakened state?

There's always the Raynes of Castamere as an example. Kill the whole family root and stem. It would be poetic justice for Tywin wouldn't it?
post #2471 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by scurvyfreedman View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
What about little Myrcella? She's got a fighting chance given that she's under Doran's protection. What about the cadet branches? The Lannisters of Lannisport? Lancel? Or will he fight Ser Robert Strong wearing the Faith's colors even in his weakened state?

There's always the Raynes of Castamere as an example. Kill the whole family root and stem. It would be poetic justice for Tywin wouldn't it?

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
OK, only of the senior branch (i.e. Tywin and his children) that will survive. Myrcella I am undecided on. She might survive, but she's really just a pawn for others at this point, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if she is killed or completely minimized.

Alternatively, Jaime could sacrifice himself to save Arya or Sansa--or even Jon Snow. Would be quite the turnaround.
post #2472 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by scurvyfreedman View Post

Jaime Lannister sends his regards.
Then again, he was saving the lives of three with the attempted murder of Bran. And, I'm not so sure he were persistent. We don't know (at least at this point in the show) who hired the cutthroat. He only pushed Bran from the tower.
The things he does for love.

saving lives that he put in danger by proactively killing a child is super shitty behavior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aravenel View Post

Jaime has become one of my favorite characters.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
He's obviously terrible early on, but losing his hand makes him question everything he was, and his changes and journey are to me one of the most interesting and important in the book.

Totally my opinion, but I also think he's the only Lannister that is going to survive the books.

o look forward to seeing his turnaround. still hope he gets killed.
post #2473 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by aravenel View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
OK, only of the senior branch (i.e. Tywin and his children) that will survive. Myrcella I am undecided on. She might survive, but she's really just a pawn for others at this point, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if she is killed or completely minimized.

Alternatively, Jaime could sacrifice himself to save Arya or Sansa--or even Jon Snow. Would be quite the turnaround.
Warming: Spoiler! (Click to show)
What have we been waiting, seven years since Brienne cried one word before being hanged, saving her life. GRRM told a con that the word was "sword" meaning she would kill Jaime Lannister. Then she appears for a small portion of one chapter in ADwD, looks terrible (worse than normal for her) and escorts Jaime away from his army, obviously headed to Lady Stoneheart. Her cliffhanger is so old that when she comes back she'll be undead.
post #2474 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by aravenel View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
OK, only of the senior branch (i.e. Tywin and his children) that will survive. Myrcella I am undecided on. She might survive, but she's really just a pawn for others at this point, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if she is killed or completely minimized.

Alternatively, Jaime could sacrifice himself to save Arya or Sansa--or even Jon Snow. Would be quite the turnaround.


Warning: MAJOR Spoilers - DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE NOT CAUGHT UP ON THE BOOKS! (Click to show)

These are the Houses Paramount at the beginning of the series. It's not just the Lannisters with a good likelihood of eradication.

What about the Starks? They started with a lot of kids at least. Four far flung remain and none have power outside of supernatural, one may be joining a tree. Another is MIA possibly in Skagos. One is incognito. And another is no one.

What about the Arryns? Robert is the only one left and he's not going to make it.

What about the Tyrells? Loras may be dead - but that's an unreliable report from someone who turned cloak immediately and absconded with Cersei's navy. But, they have the Iron Born knocking on their door. I think Garlan will die a valiant death fighting the Iron Born. But, we don't have a narrator in the Reach other than Samwell. Willas isn't in great shape already.

Greyjoys? Euron will die and so will Victarion. Theon, Asha? Nuncle?

Tullys? Edmure is alive until his child is born at least.

Baratheon? Stannis is the only King from the War of the 5 Kings still alive. Shireen?

Martells? Only have lost one member of the family. Playing it so close to the vest with people inserted in various places and Crown Princess traveling to Aegon (Faegon) to forge that alliance.

Targaryen? Only started with two, one left but she's so annoying she's got to stick around.

Blackfyre/Targaryen/complete fake? He's got a shot.

R+L=J? He appears dead but if Melisandre burns him on a pyre she could be burning the Kingsblood she's been looking for, releasing the dragon from the stone. Does that bring Jon back to life as a true Targaryen? GRRM loves misdirection, so maybe the whole R+L=J thing was to throw us off.
post #2475 of 4901
Quote:
Originally Posted by scurvyfreedman View Post


Jaime Lannister sends his regards.
Then again, he was saving the lives of three with the attempted murder of Bran. And, I'm not so sure he were persistent. We don't know (at least at this point in the show) who hired the cutthroat. He only pushed Bran from the tower.

The things he does for love.


Has the part about who actually did that been missed out? At what stage does it properly come up in the books? I should really read them again.

 

 

Whoever said characters are complicated in asoiaf is completely correct, this isn't Star Wars, there's no clear cut good and bad. It's a harsh world full of people willing to do what they need to do to survive.

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