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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura - Page 229post #3421 of 41235/30/13 at 11:57amAll of you discussing the shoulder treatment on NSM jackets have to keep in mind that Mina does indeed ask the customer what type of shoulder he wants. I remember she asked me if I wanted the "waterfall/shirring" on shoulders of my coats and I said yes. I don't know what other shoulder treatment she does as I did not ask but that leads me to believe that they do have different shoulders which might contribute to some of the inconsistency you are seeing on different coats.post #3422 of 41235/30/13 at 12:47pmThe issue is not "shoulder treatment," as you describe. There are different ways of attaching the sleeve to the body, including the "spalla camicia" or "waterfall/shirring" method you mention. But that is not what's at stake. The problem area is the line of the shoulder, between the collar and scye.post #3423 of 41235/30/13 at 1:12pmpost #3424 of 41235/30/13 at 1:16pmpost #3425 of 41235/30/13 at 1:17pmQuote:Originally Posted by mafoofan
The issue is not "shoulder treatment," as you describe. There are different ways of attaching the sleeve to the body, including the "spalla camicia" or "waterfall/shirring" method you mention. But that is not what's at stake. The problem area is the line of the shoulder, between the collar and scye.
You're confusing what's at stake with what's at issue. What's at stake is almost nothing. But that's never prevented a good StyFo battle royale before.post #3426 of 41235/30/13 at 3:16pm
Maybe I will. Have a few new things coming.Quote:
The only reason nothing is at stake is because Styleforum has become #menswearforum. I can't remember another member making a single sustained, meaningful critique of an "artisan's" work in at least a year. Everyone is gah-gah for everything.
Like I've said, half the art of bespoke is on the client's side. You need to learn how to work with your tailor, not simply accept everything he says and does. A healthy give-and-take is how to get the best results.post #3427 of 41235/30/13 at 3:23pmQuote:Originally Posted by forex
All of you discussing the shoulder treatment on NSM jackets have to keep in mind that Mina does indeed ask the customer what type of shoulder he wants. I remember she asked me if I wanted the "waterfall/shirring" on shoulders of my coats and I said yes. I don't know what other shoulder treatment she does as I did not ask but that leads me to believe that they do have different shoulders which might contribute to some of the inconsistency you are seeing on different coats.
That's a very useful information. If they ask upfront what shoulder expression treatment the customer wants, it's logical that this information is used as a basis to decide which shoulder line is more appropriated for that particular coat and customer.
In my opinion, the "natural pagoda" is a discreet way to bulk up the shoulders of the wearer. Not as imposing as the pagoda shoulder line and not as slouchy as the natural shoulder line.post #3428 of 41235/30/13 at 3:27pmVictor, I think you are missing the point.
Per your previous post, the "premise" of my judgment has nothing to do with NSM's intentions. The premise is that the shoulder line is bad. Whether intentional or not is secondary at best, irrelevant at worst.
It is not a pagoda shoulder. A pagoda shoulder is fully concave, from collar to shoulder point. A single curve. The NSM shoulder line is not a single, concave curve. It is convex, like a natural unpadded shoulder, up until an inch or two before the scye, at which point it swings upward into concavity. You can call it an improperly executed pagoda, or an improperly executed natural shoulder, but it is bad whatever the name.post #3429 of 41235/30/13 at 3:57pm
I see, so you weren't judging whether the shoulder line was intentional or not, you're just stating that it's wrong. Fair. Honestly, I'm not versed enough to enter on this discussion, as I've no impressive historical knowledge on tailoring. So I'll not agree or disagree with you on that matter.
What I can do is to reason with what is given to me. What I call a "natural pagoda" (upturn + half of a natural line) is on some NSM garments and on garments from others artisans. You seem to not like it. However, I do appreciate this shoulder line, being a historical error or not, and, while liking it, I'm not blind to the house style characteristics that aren't to my taste.
We've many exemplars of NSM garments that present the natural pagoda, so, in my opinion, we should regard it as a house style's characteristic The use, however, is not very clear to me, yet.post #3430 of 41235/30/13 at 4:01pmThe "natural pagoda" isn't a real thing, though. I had "natural pagodas" on my MTM jackets. One way to get the effect is to cut the scye too big and high above the natural shoulder line. It is possible NSM is simply not adjusting their block patterns acutely enough, leaving the scyes too large.
Google "natural pagoda" and see if you find anything. Seriously. Doesn't exist. A pagoda, by definition, is not natural. You can't legitimate something just by giving it a name.post #3431 of 41235/30/13 at 4:20pm
That's a cool information, did you solve the "problem" by adjusting the scye? It would be nice with we had photographs to compare, as without tailoring qualifications I can't quite picture it.
I'm not legitimating it, I've just said that I'm not qualified enough to discuss whether it is legit or not. Also, I'm sure that natural pagoda will not give any results on a google search, I just made that up. My goal with the name is just to have a more respectful way to speak about someone's work.
By the way, what are the key aspects of a coat's silhouette, in your opinion? Some aspects that just seems to be details to me get way more attention for others, so I'm trying to refine my definition on the key aspects of a coat's silhouette.post #3432 of 41235/30/13 at 4:24pmI'm not sure why we need to speak respectfully of any tailor's work. It was paid for, with real money, no? Good work is owed for the price paid. When we start worshipping tailors, we stop getting good tailoring. NSM tailoring is highly variable, from what we've seen. Some examples are okay, most are somewhat problematic, and a few are really bad. I'm not the only "old-timer" who thinks so. The forum just isn't hospitable to honest critique anymore.
I never had the scye fixed because I didn't want to throw more money at the problem and just moved onto bespoke. Someone earlier in this thread thought they were being very clever by posting a seven-year-old photo of me with "natural pagoda" shoulders. They were on the MTM Oxxford jackets I went to Naples to replace with Rubinacci.post #3433 of 41235/30/13 at 4:39pm
Well, I'm not very keen on discussing education values, so I'm just going to give you this reply and leave it to that. In my opinion, paying someone does not entitled me to treat his work as something purely rational, it's a human's work, especially if it an artisan's work. His work and his reputation are the key things that put food on his table so I'm going to show some respect to his work. However, this does not means that no constructive criticism is going to be given, just keep in mind that the line between constructive and offensive is very tenuous and varies between cultures.
Regarding your Oxxford jackets, I'll search for the pictures, thanks. Any clues for my question about a house style?post #3434 of 41235/30/13 at 4:55pmNSM appears to cut a very lean jacket by default. There is little to none of the drape often associated with "Neapolitan" jackets. But the cut is also not as shapely as I've seen on Solitos and Rubinaccis. The chest area is the clearest indication of what I mean. I associate a three-dimensionally sculpted chest with good tailoring, whether it is Neapolitan soft or English hard. I don't like that NSM lacks that. NSM details and features tend to verge on the severe or exaggerated. Super-high gorges, for example. Likewise, buttoning points often appear a bit high, and jackets a bit short. Overall, somewhat of a caricature, with some rough edges to boot. Against that context, the weird shoulder lines are particularly jarring. In a RTW jacket, they would be seen as a mistake to eliminate.
As for your other point: I don't think it is doing anyone any good to hold back criticism. Neither NSM, nor any other tailor, is doing anyone any favors. They take money for their work. It is not art or charity. It's clothing you worked hard to pay for. We don't hold back our critiques of restaurants, plumbers, doctors, etc. Why are tailors different? Don't fool yourself.post #3435 of 41235/30/13 at 5:24pmQuote:
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