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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura - Page 203

post #3031 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

NSM, the wadding at the end of the deltoid creates the extended shoulder but also accentuates the flatness of the acromion. You could minimize the wadding to minimize the accentuation.

This is exactly the point. Your diagram shows very clearly, beyond the acromion, the NSM jacket no longer hugs the natural shoulder. It lifts off. That is not a necessary feature of a natural, unpadded shoulder. The Rubinacci jackets you see above extend along the shoulder further than most NSM jackets, yet they drop with the shoulder beyond the acromion. So, what perplexes is the argument that the NSM shoulder line is the result of being unpadded. More wadding/padding is not going to make a shoulder drop more--exactly the opposite.

Cloth does not defy gravity. It is not going to lift off the shoulder unless the tailor does something to make it happen that way. Has NSM been telling people their shoulder line is the intrinsic result of being unpadded/natural? Hope not.
post #3032 of 3954
To further illustrate, adding to poorsod's previously posted diagram:



Some have been saying that the NSM shoulder line lifts off or levels off beyond the wearer's acromion, due to a lack of wadding or padding, causing the upturned, ski-jump Type N Shoulder shape. This truly baffles me. Not to be pedantic, but gravity tends to prevent exactly that sort of thing from happening. Unless a jacket is cut or structured by a tailor to do otherwise, it will fall with the drop-off of the wearer's own shoulders. This is not a matter of tailoring expertise. It's an understanding of two basic things: (1) the principle that cloth, like other things, falls with gravity unless physically propped up, and (2) the fact that other unpadded shoulders fall-off beyond the acromion, instead of staying suspended in mid-air. Such unpadded shoulders are represented by the Type R Shoulder illustrated above.

We see evidence of the Type R Shoulder in the photos of Mariano Rubinacci recently posted in this thread. It is also present on my jackets and other's. The jacket hugs the natural shoulder, behaving as one would expect it to under the weight of gravity.

One potential explanation for the Type N Shoulder: the armscye is cut with a diameter that extends too high above the natural shoulder, and since it is structured, it lifts the jacket off the natural shoulder. This happens in RTW a lot. Also, anyone who's had the padding removed from a padded jacket is likely to have witnessed a similar effect, as the armscye of such a jacket was originally cut to accommodate the removed padding. Unless your alterations tailor goes through the trouble of cutting down the armscye and removes extra cloth at the shoulder seam, the armscye will project above the natural shoulder, causing the newly unpadded shoulder line to "lift off" beyond the acromion. Just as in the Type N Shoulder above.
post #3033 of 3954
Also, I'm supposing tailors like Jefferyd and Despos will see either Type N or Type R Shoulders as errors. That brings us to a whole other discussion we don't need to get into. The point is rather: the Type N Shoulder, such as seen on NSM jackets, is not a foregone conclusion simply because a tailor uses minimal wadding or padding.
post #3034 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDiaz View Post

But isn't that normal if you choose to have shoulder extension and not a lot of wadding? If I needed shoulder extension to avoid looking like a pear I'd rather have that droop than something that resembles a muscle suit at the shoulder and sleevehead...

I think you are right. That "droop" is kind of intrinsic to how Rubinacci cuts jackets. They don't add it on purpose, but they don't see it as an error either. If they are cutting you a natural, unpadded shoulder, and you need extension to get additional shoulder width, you will get some droop.
post #3035 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stugotes View Post

Not just Attolinis, a Steed 2pc is about $7.000 and he seems to have "a few" of those...

A Steed 2-piece is NOT $7000. Not sure where that number came from unless it's fabric woven with gold threads. Their standard price is roughly half that for a suit.

Let's not spread false rumors.
post #3036 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

To be honest, I have seen some awful looking shoulders on Rubinacci coats, too, though most look great. The worst offenders are Mariano's own. Like these:


It is possible that these are just old and what they look like all broken down, but I am not a fan.

Foo, even if the LH shoulder expression is a recognized one, don't you think it can look a bit off(?) The commenter who noted that this shoulder expression makes the wearer appear as if he has shrunk has a point. Here is another example:



Generally, LH bespoke looks fantastic. In addition, this is a thread on NSM, so perhaps discussions of LH bespoke should be avoided entirely. Anyway. If my eye is seeing things correctly, Nay goes for a more narrow shoulder and thereby escapes the "shrunk" look - I'm wondering why this isn't the LH standard, given that it looks cleaner:



I suppose the answer is "Customers of LH bespoke like the default shoulder expression, which is attractive to their eye and correct from a tailoring perspective", but, to the untrained eye, the extended shoulder can look off. I am saying this in the spirit of engaging in a thoughtful discussion - not in the spirit of engaging in a veiled attack on LH, which makes beautiful bespoke and OTR items (some of which I have purchased and like very much, because they are of an outstanding quality.) Just wanted to add that disclaimer lest I inadvertently end up on someone's shit list(!)
post #3037 of 3954

Ok, everybody relax, I mixed up their special promotion prices.

post #3038 of 3954
x-raying members wearing NSM is next level shit
post #3039 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

x-raying members wearing NSM is next level shit

We push the envelope here at SF.
post #3040 of 3954
If I am not mistaken, the whnay. suit looks like there is some shoulder extension, which you can infer from the sleeve and sleevehead. Apart from the fact that it is generally well-cut anyway, the slight roping helps the shoulder definition look good.
post #3041 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

x-raying members wearing NSM is next level shit

Plz to bring x-ray analysis to the Ambrosi threak, complete with 360 degree diagrams of the way the 17-button fly and hand-stitched crotch seam gracefully swath the penis/testes of the wearer (nhjic).
post #3042 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stugotes View Post

Ok, everybody relax, I mixed up their special promotion prices.

What was the promotion price?
post #3043 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaymanS View Post

Foo, even if the LH shoulder expression is a recognized one, don't you think it can look a bit off(?) The commenter who noted that this shoulder expression makes the wearer appear as if he has shrunk has a point. Here is another example: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Well, it's certainly not to everyone's taste. When I visited Savile Row, Richard Anderson noted that he would never let me walk out of his shop with the shoulders on my Rubinacci jacket. However, he also acknowledged it is a legitimate tailoring choice that he knows comes out of southern Italy--it just wouldn't ever be a choice he'd make himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaymanS View Post

Generally, LH bespoke looks fantastic. In addition, this is a thread on NSM, so perhaps discussions of LH bespoke should be avoided entirely. Anyway. If my eye is seeing things correctly, Nay goes for a more narrow shoulder and thereby escapes the "shrunk" look - I'm wondering why this isn't the LH standard, given that it looks cleaner: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


The thing to realize is that the "droop" is what LH generally does. The degree of drooping just depends on your particular shoulders. As you get older, your shoulders get smaller and slope down more, so the effect will increase. However, it was always there.

Nay's jacket is a not a good point of reference. They went out of their way to do something atypical for him--perhaps because the overall angle of his shoulders, from neck to end points, is extremely steep. However, there is quite a bit of shoulder extension in his jackets. There is no drooping because the shoulders have much more structure in them to achieve the mild pagoda shape. In comparison, my jackets have essentially no extension, yet you can still see some droop because my shoulders fall-off after my acromion. If the shoulders were extended, the effect would simply be enhanced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaymanS View Post

I suppose the answer is "Customers of LH bespoke like the default shoulder expression, which is attractive to their eye and correct from a tailoring perspective", but, to the untrained eye, the extended shoulder can look off. I am saying this in the spirit of engaging in a thoughtful discussion - not in the spirit of engaging in a veiled attack on LH, which makes beautiful bespoke and OTR items (some of which I have purchased and like very much, because they are of an outstanding quality.) Just wanted to add that disclaimer lest I inadvertently end up on someone's shit list(!)

According to many orthodox points-of-view, it is not a good shoulder expression. Savile Row tailors would see it as a mistake, and American tailors like Despos have voiced mild disapproval. Hell, even a northern Italian tailor would not cut you something like that. Yet, Mariano Rubinacci will say that built-up, straightened shoulders are "not elegant" or "not nice." I suppose what I'm saying is that there are many schools of tailoring around the world, and they tend to contradict each other. If you like one, you may easily find another wrong or distasteful.
post #3044 of 3954
foo: do you have an iammatt database? I don't remember his LH suits being droopy (and no data mining please). In fact, I recall his look like a level-er version of whnay's, but without the roping, though that does not mean they are constructed the same way.
post #3045 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

foo: do you have an iammatt database? I don't remember his LH suits being droopy (and no data mining please). In fact, I recall his look like a level-er version of whnay's, but without the roping, though that does not mean they are constructed the same way.
never mind. whnay. did it for me. I think there is a tiny bit of extension, but based on the sleevehead, it looks like they are working with a relatively square shoulder. In any event, the result is not a droopy sleeve, which is why I like this verison of LH's work best
Quote:
Originally Posted by whnay. View Post

Here are some of my favorites from Matt:









.../quote]
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