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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura - Page 202post #3016 of 41424/21/13 at 2:26pmpost #3017 of 41424/21/13 at 3:17pmQuote:Originally Posted by CaymanS
The one thing I can't wrap my arms around is why, if the shoulder is indeed misshapen, commenters who are obviously knowledgeable continue to patronize NSM. These commenters include Manton, Vox, Will and many others (notably, Will had three tailors in his rotation - NSM has replaced two of them.) One obvious explanation is "Well, for 2 grand, it's good enough." I'm not satisfied by this explanation, though, because each of the three commenters I've mentioned has the resources to patronize far more expensive tailors/brands - for instance, Vox has more than a few Attolini's, which go for $6k+ (given his mockery of sale-hunting, I'm assuming he's not bidding on Attolini's all day on eBay.) In addition, these commenters are knowledgeable enough that they would abandon a tailoring house entirely (in a second) if they felt that the work was questionable - they do not. What this leaves us with, to my mind, is the last possibility - that it is a problem only noticeable to the very few people out there who have the expertise to spot it as a problem in the first place. This, to me, seems like the answer.
Manton stopped using them after his first order. Vox had his shoulders adjusted.
You don't need tailoring expertise to see if a shoulder line looks right. You need a moderate amount of knowledge and decent eyes. The right way to approach bespoke is not to accept an ugly or awkward result if there is a technical explanation for it, but to be able to spot the ugliness and awkwardness, then have your tailor fix it. After all, there is not only one way to shape a shoulder. There is not only one way to wad or pad it. There isn't even only one way to cut a shoulder that is natural and "unpadded." After all, other Neapolitan tailors of greater fame and repute, and whom precede NSM, avoid creating natural, unpadded shoulders with upturned ends. Hence, if you see any awkwardness or ugliness in the NSM shoulder line, you can deduce that it can (and should) be fixed. If you don't see it, feel free to live happy in your ignorance.
My suspicion is that many clients are simply so wed to the idea of a no-compromise ~$2,000 bespoke Neapolitan suit that they refuse to see the obvious. Also, I have a reputation for arguing here, so I'm sure many are arguing against me simply to make a point of it. Consider the absurd conclusion that they would have you reach: there is nothing wrong until your tailor tells you so, and if he has any explanation whatsoever, it must be fine.
For what it's worth, many experienced people with judgment I respect have PM'ed me or e-mailed me confirming what I am seeing. Unlike me, they are not bastards and don't want to upset people.post #3018 of 41424/21/13 at 4:14pmpost #3019 of 41424/21/13 at 4:16pmQuote:
I never noticed it until it was pointed out, but now it's so easy to spot that I wonder how it can be explained away.post #3020 of 41424/21/13 at 4:23pmpost #3021 of 41424/21/13 at 4:37pmpost #3022 of 41424/21/13 at 5:07pmQuote:
*hacks Foo's PM account*
Foo: Chris, am I going crazy here?
Despos: Nah. Shit looks fucked the fuck up. You've seen my crispy-ass shoulder. Crispier than a Pringles potato chip right after you peel back the tennis ball cap. People don't even photograph my shit like that...but I still wouldn't let a customer leave my shop looking a hot mess like that. On principle...nahmean?
Foo: Exactly, man! C'mon now, can I get some back-up? Say something - anything! I'm the lone ranger out here!
Despos: I can't do that lil' homie. Honor amongst thieves. What's worse, you think those Rubinacci's look perfect - let me start with that lapel right qui - -
*reports user*post #3023 of 41424/21/13 at 5:21pmpost #3024 of 41424/21/13 at 5:26pmMine look the same as Mariano's. So do Iammatt's. Whnay's are a different animal. That drop-off is typical of the natural shoulders that come out of the traditional Neapolitan tailor shops. See Solito for comparison. JefferyD would no doubt consider it a mistake, but the point is, it is a recognizable species of shoulder expression regularly implemented by long-established Neapolitan tailors. The jacket shoulder is allowed to conform to the natural convexity of the wearer's shoulder, then drops off at an even steeper angle should extension be used. If you consider it a problem, it is still a different problem from what we are seeing in NSM shoulders. The typical Rubinacci shoulder is always convex, though the rate of curvature changes. The NSM shoulder inverts from convex to concave.
The NSM "artifact" we are seeing reflects an incorrectly executed natural shoulder or an incorrectly executed pagoda. Either way, it should not be there. That your jackets (and others') don't have the problem is pretty indicative in and of itself that we aren't looking at a purposeful feature. And even if purposeful, it's ugly.
Previously posted photos to illustrate:post #3025 of 41424/21/13 at 5:34pmI agree that it has nothing to do with NSM. Also, Mariano's drop off in a way that yours do not. I recall that iammatt's do not do that either. I know you are talking about the hump, which is natural and is just the way they do things. What bothers me is the elongated droop that results in the sleevhead starting on the side of the body rather than from the shoulders. I think there is a photo of Mariano in a blue suit that is worse than the two I quickly found. It is also quite possible, seriously, that he has shrunk.post #3026 of 41424/21/13 at 9:15pmpost #3027 of 41424/21/13 at 9:20pmQuote:
A&S has always traditionally been one of the "cheapest" on the row, so naturally their offspring (steed, mahon, hitchcock) would be as well. This is of course comparing to Huntsman, Kilgour, Gieves, etc so "cheapest" is a relative termpost #3028 of 41424/21/13 at 9:32pm
What you are noticing is the contour of the trapezius with the acromion. Consider this xray image of the shoulder where you see the slope of the trapezius meeting the horizontal acromion. (sorry I don't have Photoshop or a better graphics editor to make the picture better)
The NSM shoulder follows the natural anatomy of the shoulder via the compete absence of padding. That is why you get that contour. If you look at the shoulder anatomy, there is no way you can draw a straight or convex line that follows the contour of the shoulder. The coat shoulders with the convex contours (e.g. Rubinacci) or straight contours have to fill the negative space with padding or other material.
For NSM, the wadding at the end of the deltoid creates the extended shoulder but also accentuates the flatness of the acromion. You could minimize the wadding to minimize the accentuation.post #3029 of 41424/21/13 at 10:26pmQuote:Quote:Originally Posted by CaymanSQuote:
All of my trousers are cut to this length! To quote Teh Master:
There are many schools on trouser length. In America they are often worn so that the pant leg tumbles over the shoes.
Many Europeans now wear them quite short. You even show a little sock.
What can I say? Perhaps we Europeans are secretly afraid of flash floods. The picture at right shows, quite literally, where I stand. I call this the Mid-Atlantic Solution since it is halfway between Europe and America.
The pants just breaking lightly on the shoe. I do not want to see your socks, but I do want to see your shoes.Quote:Originally Posted by Victor Elfo
I don't want to pass as pedantic, but the explanation that Barbera provided is incomplete, in my opinion.
Saying that your trousers are just slightly touching your shoes is to say nothing, because the effect will vary much depending on the leg opening. For example, you could don trousers that would not break and still have it covering the whole shoe, as a wide leg opening will provide; and you could also have a full break at the length of the picture above, if the leg opening is narrow enough.
In my opinion, the problem with the trousers that originated this discussion is the leg opening, not the length.
My point is not wheather you show socks, but that you see a l l of the shoe (as far as I can see in the crappy shots) - so Barbera (photo) is correct, and also my waypost #3030 of 41424/21/13 at 11:15pmQuote:
But isn't that normal if you choose to have shoulder extension and not a lot of wadding? If I needed shoulder extension to avoid looking like a pear I'd rather have that droop than something that resembles a muscle suit at the shoulder and sleevehead...
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