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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura - Page 197

post #2941 of 3928
After some consideration, I think Mina, Dino, and others are right. Medium brown horn buttons are probably the way to go. It'll still look fine for a sport coat, whereas grey smoked MOP might not look right for a suit.

Thanks all for the help.
post #2942 of 3928
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Great, I'm glad we have the color of the buttons sorted out.

Now somebody PLEASE fix the fucked up shoulders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Did anyone ever clear up the shoulder issue with Mina?

Yes, it is an issue. Please, somebody, have her fix it. Not that hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Now, about those shoulders. Someone please fix them on your next order.

For as reluctant as I am to feed foo.gif's need for attention, I decided - for reasons that remain unclear even to me - to take some photos to illustrate why NSM's shoulders look the way they do.

I know that foo.gif will, undoubtedly, come back screaming all the more loudly that it's effed up and a huge mistake. And at that point, the conversation will have become too pointless, even for me, and I'll opt out.

But in case anyone (apart for me) find this stuff interesting, here's a comparison.
post #2943 of 3928
Here are three takes on a soft, Naples-y shoulder.

Rubinacci


Solito


Mina


I put them in order of increasing slope at the end of the shoulder. Now onto why each shoulder looks the way it does.

Even a jacket with a very shoft shoulder, will have something in the sleevehead to make the sleeves fall straight. (The ripples in the sleevehead are due to something different - it's been written about extensively elsewhere but it's akin to shirring.)

For some bizarre reason, people like to say their stuff is completely unpadded. While that's not true, it's become an article of faith for some people so I'll avoid using the P-word. Let's uinstead refer to this as 'stuff that helps the sleeve hang nicely' or STHTSHN for short.

As I mentioned upthreak, the bump at the end of a NSM shoulder starts where the STHTSHN starts.

As you might be able to see from these photos, both the NSM and the Rubinacci have visible STHTSHN:


^ it's fairly obvious on the NSM


^ It's definitely there on the 'Nacci but it's slightly harder to see due to the thicker fabric so here are some ghetto red lines, courtesy of Paint and my nerves of steel:



So, given that they both have STHTSHN and roughly the same amount of it (i.e. is starts in about the same place on the shoulder) why does the NSM have a bump at the end while the 'Nacci is bump-free?

Two reasons - (1) the Rubinacci has more padding throughout the shoulder and (2) the Rubinacci has an extended shoulder

1) more padding throughout the shoulder

This is something that's really hard (at least for my meager ability) to capture on camera but what I've tried to convey here is a sense for how much padding is present throughout the shoulder and especially right where the STHTSHN starts…
Pedantry (Click to show)
Rubinacci




Don't get me wrong, it feels like butta but there something in there. It's not pre-formed padding and the Thomas Mahonian term of 'wadding' seems appropriate but there's something in there, especially at the sleevehead helping to smooth the transition to the STHTSHN.


Solito




Solito is a similar to Rubinacci, though with perhaps a but less wadding throughout the shoulder.


Mina Su Misura






There just absolutely nothing in there. It's more obvious with the thin cloth. But it's just cloth, canvas and lining until you hit the STHTSHN.

(As an aside, that visible basting stitch - and it's not the only one - always bugs me.)


2) extended shoulder

If you stare at these photos for quite a while, there a chance you'll notice that the 'Nacci and the Solito have a similar amount of padding throughout the shoulder but the Solito has a little bump at the end, whereas the 'Nacci does not.

That's down to the second reason that NSM has a bump at the end, while Rubinacci does not - the 'Nacci has an extended shoulder.

On the NSM, the STHTSHN sits atop my shoulder bone. On the Rubinacci, the STHTSHN sits atop empty space, my ripped triceps being a little bit lower.

It looks like Luca, prefers a less extended shoulder and that - I'd conjecture - is why he has a Solito-like bump at the end of his shoulder.

post #2944 of 3928
Great report Cantabrigan! I agree with your assessment about how the minimal padding affects the shoulder line. Now I just wait for the riposte. lurker[1].gif
post #2945 of 3928
This doesn't explain why one person can have some Mina jackets that show the effect and other jackets that don't.
post #2946 of 3928
Quote:
Originally Posted by agjiffy View Post

This doesn't explain why one person can have some Mina jackets that show the effect and other jackets that don't.

Those jackets have more padding in the shoulder. A heavier cloth that would also make it somewhat less apparent, for the obvious reasons.
post #2947 of 3928
Could you pls ID the blue fabric (NSM coat)?
post #2948 of 3928
Isn't that the official iGent fresco--0520?
post #2949 of 3928

I would have thought that the bump you call STHTSHN is just the sleeve seam allowance (which is pressed towards the body on a shirt shoulder). Do they put something else in there besides wadding? 

post #2950 of 3928
I think you miss the point of my criticism.

I never said that a Neapolitan, or any other jacket, should be completely unpadded. That is an internet myth that I've tried dispelling myself many times. Every bespoke jacket I've seen from Naples has a bit of wadding where the shoulder hits the scye. That is the way all mine are made too.

The problem with the NSM jackets has nothing to do with whether they have wadding. It is, ultimately, about how the shoulder line is expressed. That could have to do with how the wadding is shaped, where it is inserted, etc. It could also have to do with how the jackets are cut. The point is: the shoulder line should not invert itself, going from convex to concave. A pagoda shoulder will be fully concave. A natural shoulder will be fully convex. What NSM does is neither. However they pad/wad/cut the shoulder, they should do it in a way that expresses an elegant line. I don't particularly like Luca's jacket shoulders, but more importantly, you shouldn't use them as a comparison or reference--they are completely unlike what Rubinacci typically produces, and when compared to the output specific to the Naples workshop, virtually Martian.

So, this talk of wadding is neither here nor there. The resulting shape is the issue. I don't care if NSM pads or not. But they should be more thoughtful about how they execute the shoulder line.
post #2951 of 3928
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

Isn't that the official iGent fresco--0520?

 

Looks a bit darker than the 520. I was thinking that its perhaps a Smiths?
post #2952 of 3928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantabrigian View Post

Those jackets have more padding in the shoulder. A heavier cloth that would also make it somewhat less apparent, for the obvious reasons.

This is terrible reasoning.

A good tailor would modify the type/amount of padding or wadding for the cloth and degree of shoulder extension. Evidently, NSM does not. That in and of itself is a big error. It's as if they are rotely following the instructions for a wadded, extended shoulder (where the wadding is used to keep the shoulder line from completely collapsing), but not adjusting the proportions or position of the wadding for less shoulder extension.
post #2953 of 3928
Foo - how did you get your b&w avatar? Is that a photoshop thingy?
post #2954 of 3928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eustace Tilley View Post

Foo - how did you get your b&w avatar? Is that a photoshop thingy?

Yep. There is probably a much smarter, faster way to do it than the method I used, though.
post #2955 of 3928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eustace Tilley View Post

Could you pls ID the blue fabric (NSM coat)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

Isn't that the official iGent fresco--0520?

It is my official badge of iGentry.

In my defense, I chose it independently while I was away from the forumz.
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