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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura - Page 194post #2896 of 39723/15/13 at 1:16pm
Styleforum Top Pickspost #2897 of 39723/15/13 at 1:51pmpost #2898 of 39723/15/13 at 1:54pmpost #2899 of 39723/15/13 at 2:09pmpost #2900 of 39723/15/13 at 4:28pmQuote:
This is another (and incidentally less accurate) way of describing what i tried to explain above.
The padding / wadding that makes the sleeve fall properly, on NSM, starts only a millimetre or so in from the seam. Around there is where the acromion begins. The slope of the shoulder levels out after the deltoid and the inverts slightly at the acromion. Extending the sleevehead padding ever so slightly smooths that transition. NSM does not extend the padding that way.
The other thing that contributes to the NSM shoulder is - and this is just a guess - that they use pre-formed padding right at the sleevehead and this takes more time to settle than softer wadding.
So this effect on the shoulder is the result of a deliberate lack of extra material until right before the sleevehead. I think I prefer the Rubinacci / Solito / everyone but NSM approach, at least in most instances.
By being the unpadded-est* their coats have - necessarily I'd add - this effect at the shoulder. I don't think a slight increase in lightness over London House / Solito / everybody else in Naples is particularly important. But it is a difference and not a simple oversight.
*Though I think this discussion would be easier if we banished mention of 'unpadded' (1) because its simply not true in the case of any tailored garment and (2) because it has become, to some extent, shorthand for quality. Given 2, people are cagey about admitting the existence of any padding whatsoever and that just jumbles things further.post #2901 of 39723/15/13 at 7:18pmpost #2902 of 39723/16/13 at 10:13amQuote:The bump at the end of the shoulder and into the sleevehead is partially due to how the seam allowance is folded / stitched or at least that's my guess since the slope increases exactly where the seam allowance starts.
I think a tailor should chime in on the nomenclature of this 'fetuccia' thingy (and where exactly it is positioned when it comes to construction). Unfortunately I forgot the infortmation I had as it was explained to me by a tailor from Naples, but I can say with certainty that it is not a defect by any means (within the realm of traditional bespoke, at least in Italy). You find it on many coats of the different Italian provenances and the visibility depends usually on the fabric. In some cases it is also very visible despite thicker fabrics, there are some very prominent examples of Liverano tweed coats on the Armoury blog (I have it on bespoke from various provenances, though it is mostly invisible, no matter how hard or soft the garment is constructed).
edit: this has obviously nothing to do with the 'shoulder' and in particular absolutely nothing whether it is a manica a camicia with whatever padding/wadding added to the actual shoulder or a pagoda resp. spalla insellata (nomenclature!!! there is no such thing as 'spalla camicia').
Edited by Cravate_Noire - 3/16/13 at 4:12pmpost #2903 of 39723/16/13 at 2:40pmpost #2904 of 39723/16/13 at 2:55pmpost #2905 of 39723/16/13 at 3:00pmpost #2906 of 39723/16/13 at 3:54pm
Do you need to be a tailor to use your eyes or power to reason? All I know is that it looks ugly to me, and I have never heard of such a thing as a half-natural, half-pagoda shoulder. The explanations so far are unconvincing--not because they defy my "expertise," but because they don't make sense to me as a reasonably intelligent person.post #2907 of 39723/16/13 at 3:59pmpost #2908 of 39723/16/13 at 5:06pmQuote:Originally Posted by mafoofan
Do you need to be a tailor to use your eyes or reasoning? All I know is that it looks ugly to me, and I have never heard of such a thing as a half-natural, half-pagoda shoulder. The explanations so far are unconvincing--not because they defy my "expertise," but because they don't make sense.
All those Neapolitan coats are crap anyway, they have fucked up seams on shoulders, back, outer sleeves, sidebodies...Totally fucked up man, the bloody seams are not even plain there!
Now are you telling me that it's a technique, maybe even one particular for certain provenances, to rather lap certain seams than to get them plain (propper nomenclature for different seam treatments)? But you'd be right. I think the example is not even too far fetched, a freak e.g. might be totally put off to see pick stitched lapped seams when he's used to totally plain, undecorative tailoring. Now you should get the point which should not even touch discussing a potential deviations of a technique, but avoiding to make a deviation (in this case a negative one) from a technique per se. The opposite happened (kind of) with buttonholes, the mere technique of finishing 'Milanese buttonholes' (or shiny buttonholes as they are mostly called in Italy) was stylised as absolutely superior finishing and idicative of overall superior quality - although it has so much provenance in it that it's considered hideous by many who are just used to different tecniques.
Interestingly, it is the most authentic and traditional tailors themselves who do these things to the most extreme extent...German tailor saying I look like a clown in some of that Italian stuff, northern Italian tailor saying that they can easily go on with their shirts in Naples while he would do actual coats for actual men, tailor in Naples breaking down seeing a jacket with regular darts/sidebodies, english tailor being proud for perfectly plain and fitted back which makes one almost immovable.
Anyway, a great deal of that technique stuff is merely criticisable, at the very least if you do not know what it actually is, so expertise is not that bad.
This does not change anything about the thing going on in the actual shoulder though (which is a different thing than what I am referring to as I pointed out in my edit of my last comment!).
I will level out my lapped seams now, that is safe as this will happen near SR.
That said, I must add, and I do so with great satisfaction, that this is rich coming from someone who turned bubbles on a coat's back into drape by a few red circles .post #2909 of 39723/16/13 at 7:15pmJust to be clear, wadding = shoulder pad, right?
My NSM jacket has zero padding, wadding, or whatever, but avoids the Pa-fucked profile. Do the Pa-fucked jackets have any padding at all?
I'm getting another jacket from NSM shortly, I will carefully screen for the Pa-fucked profile and question Mina extensively.
Finally, to revisit an earlier tangent, I was wearing virtually the same outfit I posted earlier in this thread and after chatting up a flight attendant on the Delta Connection from RDU, got invited over to her place in Howard Beach for "hottubbing." I didn't go, so I can't say what the actual parameters were (maybe she was trying to drug me and steal a kidney?), but she was young, relatively hot, and said she liked my shoes.
I maintain that chicks dig well-dressed men in high-waisted pants (and the long ball)post #2910 of 39723/17/13 at 4:21amQuote:
Will you also get a competent English shirtmaker to straighten out your Neapolitan shirt shoulders and remove the abundant pleating?
- my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura
- How Should I Start My Business Wardrobe?
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