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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura - Page 183

post #2731 of 3954
I thought "pa-fucked" (is this really going to be an SF meme now?) was what happened to the shoulder as it hit the sleevehead. Where it quickly goes up. The mid-point rise was a separate issue people were talking about.

JefferyD noted that these were all part of the same problem. I'd be curious to know why we sometime's see the mid-point rise in Foo's Rubinacci coats, but not the issue at the shoulder joint, and ... I suppose either for Jeffery or Chris to answer ... what is an example of this technique done really well? I'm perhaps confused on what Chris is now referring to in the quote emptym quoted.

Edit: I'm now looking back, and think Chris was just talking about the archetypical pagoda shoulder?
post #2732 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDiaz View Post

Shouldn't the shoulder seam (and as a result, the armscye) be shaped differently to avoid the pa-fucked (twisted) shape on an unpadded jacket like this?

I mean, something like this (modified seam to the right):






Cutting the shoulder seam on the bias, which is what you're seeing, shldn't have anything to do with the problem that was described. It's apparently an A & S trademark, and was done on coats a long time ago.

A &S here --



I'm ambivalent on whether it's a huge problem, but somebody should check with their tailors as to why this is the case. Would be very interesting.
post #2733 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

Part of it is the jacket settling. Fresh out of the box they look more like medtech's second pic. Over time, they look more and more like the first pic. This is part of the reason that Mina pulls down on the jacket during fittings, to help this process get started. Some fabrics take more time to "break in" than others.

I really doubt this. You are suggesting that Mina makes her jackets differently than Rubinacci or Solito, intending to get a similar end result, but starting off from a much worse position. Why on earth would you cut something like that to begin with when it is obviously possible to cut the shoulder so it doesn't rise up ever?

Anyway, this is a change in the story. I thought you were all arguing that the inverting shoulder line was a style feature, not something meant to go away over time.

Also, I cannot see how pulling down on the jacket will help reverse the shape of the shoulder. It seems all Neapolitan tailors do that trick, pulling down so hard that it's scary. From my personal experience, it helps smooth out the side bodies of the jacket, but not much else.
post #2734 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

It can be controlled--clearly. Hence the difference between Manton's NSM and Solito jackets. This has nothing to do with a shoulder simply being unpadded.

In the past, when I have seen the issue on other jackets, the cause has been an armscye cut too tall--usually to accommodate more padding and wadding than is actually used.

I'm asking whether it can be controlled by NSM. Obviously other tailors don't show the same effect.
post #2735 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboysdontcryy View Post


Cutting the shoulder seam on the bias, which is what you're seeing, shldn't have anything to do with the problem that was described. It's apparently an A & S trademark, and was done on coats a long time ago.

I'm ambivalent on whether it's a huge problem, but somebody should check with their tailors as to why this is the case. Would be very interesting.

 

Yes, I've heard about that. I was wondering if the seam on Medtech's jacket is really cut on the bias, or if it's just being pulled backwards due to the jacket not fitting somewhere else (misshaped armscye/back part?)

post #2736 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDiaz View Post

Shouldn't the shoulder seam (and as a result, the armscye) be shaped differently to avoid the pa-fucked (twisted) shape on an unpadded jacket like this?


You would think. I have never subscribed to the backward-leaning shoulder seam theories.

To be clear, though, this is what it should have looked like.

post #2737 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

I thought "pa-fucked" (is this really going to be an SF meme now?) was what happened to the shoulder as it hit the sleevehead. Where it quickly goes up. The mid-point rise was a separate issue people were talking about.

JefferyD noted that these were all part of the same problem. I'd be curious to know why we sometime's see the mid-point rise in Foo's Rubinacci coats, but not the issue at the shoulder joint, and ... I suppose either for Jeffery or Chris to answer ... what is an example of this technique done really well? I'm perhaps confused on what Chris is now referring to in the quote emptym quoted.

Edit: I'm now looking back, and think Chris was just talking about the archetypical pagoda shoulder?

Yes, I think it is evident that Chris was talking about the archetype of the pagoda shoulder, though I think it is a stretch at this point to categorize what we are seeing on NSM jackets as "pagoda."

Also, I'm very confused by this "mid-point rise" issue now. From my perspective, it is simply part of a natural shoulder, which both Jeffery and Chris have always had qualified reservations about (to put it mildly). Every natural shoulder I've seen becomes more steeply curved beyond a certain point. I'm not sure what you are seeing in Iammatt's jackets that is different from mine or Mariano's, but they all look similar, with a mildly distinct "hump." Whnay's are a different animal.
post #2738 of 3954
In the progression of this thread, my understanding of the problem rose slightly when an actual experienced tailor weighed in, but is now on the downward trajectory as we have 5 pages of e-tailors drawing diagrams. Sort of like the bump on med_tech's coat. confused.gif
post #2739 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

Part of it is the jacket settling. Fresh out of the box they look more like medtech's second pic. Over time, they look more and more like the first pic. This is part of the reason that Mina pulls down on the jacket during fittings, to help this process get started. Some fabrics take more time to "break in" than others.

I haven't experienced the effect changing over time.
post #2740 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post

You would think. I have never subscribed to the backward-leaning shoulder seam theories.

To be clear, though, this is what it should have looked like.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

My understanding is on an upswing again. I'm possibly at the shoulder joint of this issue.
post #2741 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
You would think. I have never subscribed to the backward-leaning shoulder seam theories.

To be clear, though, this is what it should have looked like.


Yes, you could go that way and make it true pagoda. Or you could go the other way and make it true natural. Given the inverting nature of the line as is, I find it impossible to determine what it is genuinely meant to be.

I suppose one way to check the intention of the tailor is to cut open the jacket and see if there has been any modification of the canvas at the shoulder to purposefully make it curve upward.
post #2742 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

In the progression of this thread, my understanding of the problem rose slightly when an actual experienced tailor weighed in, but is now on the downward trajectory as we have 5 pages of e-tailors drawing diagrams. Sort of like the bump on med_tech's coat. confused.gif

You never had to read Chris to be contradicting anything else discussed here. He made a very vague, general statement. So, there is only so much you can leverage his comment on this issue.
post #2743 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

In the progression of this thread, my understanding of the problem rose slightly when an actual experienced tailor weighed in, but is now on the downward trajectory as we have 5 pages of e-tailors drawing diagrams. Sort of like the bump on med_tech's coat. confused.gif

+100
post #2744 of 3954
I like clothes, I really do. But you guys love them....
post #2745 of 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

I really doubt this. You are suggesting that Mina makes her jackets differently than Rubinacci or Solito, intending to get a similar end result, but starting off from a much worse position. Why on earth would you cut something like that to begin with when it is obviously possible to cut the shoulder so it doesn't rise up ever?

Anyway, this is a change in the story. I thought you were all arguing that the inverting shoulder line was a style feature, not something meant to go away over time.

I don't know anything about Rubi or Solito, I've never been to either. But I'm not saying the end result would be like theirs, I'm saying the end result would be more like in the first medtech pic, which is different.
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