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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura - Page 181

post #2701 of 3849
That looks totally normal/natural to me.
post #2702 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big A View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I'm cross posting this to the whnay thread - this is me in a NSM jacket.

I'm not sure I understand the discussion RE: shoulders. As you can see here, the shoulder is pretty natural. The pleating or whatever you want to call it at the shoulder-head will cause slight "lift" or "bulge" of the sleeve top if, standing in the classic wayw full-length pose, you swing your hands back. I assumed this was a consequence of the "spalla camica" deal - the pleats (that's the wrong term, but hopefully you know what I mean) have to go somewhere.


No more talk of sleeveheads! It has nothing to do with what I'm looking at in the shoulder line. Look at the red lines I drew on the photos of Mariano and Vox. That highlights the issue. How the sleeve is attached and shaped at the head are neither here nor there.

That said, your NSM jacket looks better and doesn't exhibit the problem in your photo.

For convenience, here is Vox in NSM:

wonkyshoulderline_zps2d0174c4.jpg

Notice how the shoulder line (not the sleevehead) reverses curvature. In your photo, the same thing doesn't appear to be happening.
post #2703 of 3849
Side bar: Aren't we using the words concave and convex exactly opposite of how they should be? If foo's red line there tracing MR's shoulder line were a function, it would be a concave function.
post #2704 of 3849
Concave = shoulder line dips down from the neck before rising at the outer edge, i.e., like a bowl

Convex = shoulder line arcs upward over the clavicle then dips down at the outer edge. i.e., like a hump
post #2705 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

Concave = shoulder line dips down from the neck before rising at the outer edge, i.e., like a bowl

Convex = shoulder line arcs upward over the clavicle then dips down at the outer edge. i.e., like a hump

Yes, that's what I mean. It should be the other way around, if you're importing terms from mathematics.
post #2706 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

Thanks, Jeffrey. Would you mind explaining what we are seeing in the Despos photo a bit? It is not so easy for this non-tailor to understand exactly what he is looking at and what is being done and why.

How is this?

post #2707 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

Yes, that's what I mean. It should be the other way around, if you're importing terms from mathematics.

We're not importing from mathematics, though. Anyway, that's why I took such great pains to illustrate what I'm talking about. Who cares which terms we use, so long as we are all clear on what they mean.
post #2708 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post

How is this?

Thanks. That is hilarious. There is absolutely no way I would have figured out that orientation on my own.
post #2709 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

No more talk of sleeveheads! It has nothing to do with what I'm looking at in the shoulder line. Look at the red lines I drew on the photos of Mariano and Vox. That highlights the issue. How the sleeve is attached and shaped at the head are neither here nor there.

. . . .

Notice how the shoulder line (not the sleevehead) reverses curvature. In your photo, the same thing doesn't appear to be happening.

I get your point. Since the jacket has zero padding, may just be a question of physique. Assuming Vox has spent more time in the gym on his shoulders than his traps, his jacket would naturally follow the "pa-fucked" profile (great term, btw) unless there's a bit of padding to even things out. I'm not sure how else you would do it, actually.

If you are like me, and your main form of daily exercise is carrying luggage, typing on a computer, and lifting old-fashioned glasses, the unpadded shoulder might exhibit a more "natural" slope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

Side bar: Aren't we using the words concave and convex exactly opposite of how they should be? If foo's red line there tracing MR's shoulder line were a function, it would be a concave function.

That's a matter of perspective . . . .
post #2710 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

We're not importing from mathematics, though. Anyway, that's why I took such great pains to illustrate what I'm talking about. Who cares which terms we use, so long as we are all clear on what they mean.

Fair enough, was just a side bar, as I said. Thought maybe there was some interesting etymological reason that this switcheroo took place, but maybe it's just happenstance.
post #2711 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big A View Post

I get your point. Since the jacket has zero padding, may just be a question of physique. Assuming Vox has spent more time in the gym on his shoulders than his traps, his jacket would naturally follow the "pa-fucked" profile (great term, btw) unless there's a bit of padding to even things out. I'm not sure how else you would do it, actually.

That's not what's happening, though. One's shoulders, no matter how athletic, do not begin raising upward. It's the way the jacket is cut, causing it to expand upward toward the scye, up and away from the wearer's shoulder. That is the only way it makes sense that Vox's Steed and Manton's Solito jackets (both unpadded) drop down at the shoulder exactly where their NSM jackets lift off.
post #2712 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big A View Post

I get your point. Since the jacket has zero padding, may just be a question of physique. Assuming Vox has spent more time in the gym on his shoulders than his traps, his jacket would naturally follow the "pa-fucked" profile (great term, btw) unless there's a bit of padding to even things out.

Learnt smth new tdy when I visited my tailor -- should have asked about the bump! Damn. It slipped my mind. Used to think that wadding would solve everything, including leveling uneven shoulders. Apparently, working on the pattern matters as well, so the wadding could be the same on both shoulders, yet by working on the pattern, they come out level. I think the cutter would need to be present to assess this, however, though pictures might help.

That blue line below is to indicate how the cutter has adjusted for an uneven shoulder line.

post #2713 of 3849
Again, the "bump" is not the issue I'm talking about. Nobody's shoulders sprout upward like wings, so the only way a jacket shoulder sweeps upward toward the arm scye is if the way it's cut causes it to rise above the wearer's shoulder at a certain point.
post #2714 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

Fair enough, was just a side bar, as I said. Thought maybe there was some interesting etymological reason that this switcheroo took place, but maybe it's just happenstance.

I assumed as you did. Manton's definition is opposite to what I expect.
post #2715 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

I assumed as you did. Manton's definition is opposite to what I expect.
It's all in the reference point. In mathematics, it is the zero point. In SF, it is the head. Not odd at all.
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