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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura - Page 180

post #2686 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by _AMD View Post


I could be wrong, but I don't think that NsM made RDiaz's jacket. I believe that it is rtw, and he was simply using it to illustrate his point.

Aaron

 

Yep, I just used it to illustrate the problem. It's MTM, not RTW, though.

post #2687 of 3961
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post #2688 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by _AMD View Post

I could be wrong, but I don't think that NsM made RDiaz's jacket. I believe that it is rtw, and he was simply using it to illustrate his point.

Aaron
That makes more sense
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDiaz View Post

I believe reducing the amount of padding would help a lot with the shoulder concavity; in fact my tailor's gonna try it for the next commission (adding some extension, too), and if it works, will fix this one as well. It's just MTM anyways, so there are limitations in what can be done.

With NSM I'm not sure what causes this shoulder shape, really, since there's little to no padding. Either it's really intentional, the customer's shoulder shape, or just a problem with the shoulder seam not following the shoulder line?
As I wrote above, putting aside the upward slope at the end, I am pretty sure the mid-shoulder bulge is a result of the design of the shoulder seam and how the difference in size between the back and the front are handled. In other words it is an artifact of an intentional technique. In my case, at least, it feels like it is glued to my back/shoulder and is unpadded from seam to seam (less shy of an inch at each end), yet it can appear to swell mid shoulder from certain angles. This is really a job for Despos/JeffreyD.
post #2689 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDiaz View Post

Yep, I just used it to illustrate the problem. It's MTM, not RTW, though.

Thank you for the clarification, and sorry for my incorrect assumption/statement.

Aaron
post #2690 of 3961
Let's be clear: the mid-point "bulge" is not part of the problem. Any natural shoulder is likely to show some bulging of that sort. It is the inverting of the shoulder curvature, going from convex to concave, that is at issue. See here, again:

pafucked_zps3cc14250.jpg

The natural shoulder on the far left "bulges." The pa-fucked shoulder inverts.

Dopey, check your PM.
post #2691 of 3961
I'm afraid to wade in to this mess.

Despos said something to the effect of "He called it a very difficult technique as well as aesthetically pleasing to his eye." It should be edited to say "when correctly executed". These do not, in my opinion, look correctly executed.

I have never seen a coat that was not made to accommodate the forward pitch of the shoulder bone, regardless of expression. The pagoda shoulder is perhaps the most extreme version of this, and is the most difficult to execute correctly, as Despos also stated. This shot of the canvas inside a Despos suit shows the "pocket" he has created for the shoulder bone. The edge to the left is the armhole and the top is the shoulder.




There are many ways to create this pocket, and the different methods give dramatically different results (cuts, puffs, and vees in the canvas, and stretching the cloth and canvas). This pocket creates the upward curve toward the sleeve that is seen on Mina's coats- something in the way that they create this pocket makes it very pronounced, particularly from certain angles. Foo is right that the shoulder should not bump in the middle as a lot of them do, however this could be the result of a number of things so I won't speculate.
post #2692 of 3961
Thank freaking god.
post #2693 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Let's be clear: the mid-point "bulge" is not part of the problem.

Actually, it is.
post #2694 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post

Actually, it is.

Then we are talking about two different symptoms, or calling the same thing by different names. My issue is with how the shoulder line converts from natural and concave to an upward sloping, concave curvature toward the sleeve.
post #2695 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Then we are talking about two different symptoms, or calling the same thing by different names. My issue is with how the shoulder line converts from natural and concave to an upward sloping, concave curvature toward the sleeve.

We are deliberately trying to create the upward and forward slope in order to create the pocket for the shoulder bone. The space between the neck and the end of the shoulder should be hollow. What you have described as the "natural and concave" is exactly the opposite of what we are trying to achieve when executing this type of shoulder. Here is a pad that may help to show the desired shape. The idea is to have the weight of the coat sit along the mid part of the shoulder, instead of sitting on the shoulder points which is uncomfortable and can make the coat feel like it wants to go backward on you.





post #2696 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post

I'm afraid to wade in to this mess.

Despos said something to the effect of "He called it a very difficult technique as well as aesthetically pleasing to his eye." It should be edited to say "when correctly executed". These do not, in my opinion, look correctly executed.

I have never seen a coat that was not made to accommodate the forward pitch of the shoulder bone, regardless of expression. The pagoda shoulder is perhaps the most extreme version of this, and is the most difficult to execute correctly, as Despos also stated. This shot of the canvas inside a Despos suit shows the "pocket" he has created for the shoulder bone. The edge to the left is the armhole and the top is the shoulder.




There are many ways to create this pocket, and the different methods give dramatically different results (cuts, puffs, and vees in the canvas, and stretching the cloth and canvas). This pocket creates the upward curve toward the sleeve that is seen on Mina's coats- something in the way that they create this pocket makes it very pronounced, particularly from certain angles. Foo is right that the shoulder should not bump in the middle as a lot of them do, however this could be the result of a number of things so I won't speculate.
Thanks, Jeffrey. Would you mind explaining what we are seeing in the Despos photo a bit? It is not so easy for this non-tailor to understand exactly what he is looking at and what is being done and why.
post #2697 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

Thanks, Jeffrey. Would you mind explaining what we are seeing in the Despos photo a bit? It is not so easy for this non-tailor to understand exactly what he is looking at and what is being done and why.

http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com/search/label/Despos
post #2698 of 3961
Okay, let me be clear: on virtually all Neapolitan jackets, I see what I call a "mid-shoulder bulge." The convex curvature of the shoulder typically starts off at a more gentle slope, hits the bump, than becomes more steep. Yet, the whole shoulder line is convex. It never goes concave. As here:

unwonkyshoulderline_zps55a81408.jpg

In contrast, what we see on NSM jackets is a reversal or inverting of the shoulder's curvature. The jacket shoulder hits the mid-shoulder bulge, up until which point it is convex, then transitions into a concave shape. After the bump, the shoulder line sweeps upward, heading toward the scye. As so:

wonkyshoulderline_zps2d0174c4.jpg

It is how that area between the mid-shoulder bulge and the scye is handled that I am pointing out as problematic.
post #2699 of 3961
Quote:
Thanks
post #2700 of 3961
I'm cross posting this to the whnay thread - this is me in a NSM jacket.

I'm not sure I understand the discussion RE: shoulders. As you can see here, the shoulder is pretty natural. The pleating or whatever you want to call it at the shoulder-head will cause slight "lift" or "bulge" of the sleeve top if, standing in the classic wayw full-length pose, you swing your hands back. I assumed this was a consequence of the "spalla camica" deal - the pleats (that's the wrong term, but hopefully you know what I mean) have to go somewhere.

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