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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura - Page 178

post #2656 of 3960
Solito and Rubinacci also do unpadded, natural shoulders, and yet, there is no such inversion. My clavicle does show more prominently under certain lighting, when moving a particular way, and with particular jackets, but the curve of the shoulder never inverts. The mid-shoulder bump is not the issue I'm talking about. Rather, the shoulder seems to "open up" toward the arm scye.

Dopey, Manton--I don't think your own shoulders rapidly expand in radius toward your armpits. That would be really weird. So, if your jacket is doing that, it cannot have anything to do with naturally fitting your body. Just the opposite.

Here's a test Manton can do, since he has both NSM and Solito. Wear a Solito jacket, and feel the shoulder line just an inch or two short of the sleevehead. I bet you will find no empty space above your own shoulder (not counting the space created by extending the shoulder horizontally). Now, put on the NSM. Feel the same area. I bet you will find there is some emptiness above and perhaps in the front and back. If both jackets are unpadded, it is simply impossible for them to express such different shoulder shapes unless one does not keep as close to the body as the other.

EDIT: By "clavicle," I mean "acromion."
post #2657 of 3960
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

No. The stupid thing is that this can easily be fixed--so long as NSM is willing and able. Nothing needs to be burned.

I like mine the way they are - there is nothing I want "fixed" regarding the shoulder line.
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What you don't seem to get is that liking something doesn't validate it.

I realize that this is your point of view. Although I now have to assume that you are completely repudiating this sentence:
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We can see for ourselves whether something looks good.

Unless by "we" you mean the "royal we" (i.e., Manton and I). [this is a joke, don't get offended]
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I haven't just indicated what I am seeing as a problem; I've also made the case it has never before been identified as a good thing to replicate and perpetuate. It has no name. It is not something anybody asks for or what any tailor would brag about. In fact, every tailor I've talked to likes to brag that they do a clean shoulder--that is regardless of the curvature, padding, etc. You want a smooth line with gentle transitions. Inverting and undulating is the opposite of clean.

I think I've addressed this by saying that 1) I don't care if there is a "history" behind a shoulder type - there's a history behind spats too, but they're still weird to wear today. 2) reductioing to absurdum this argument, the discovery of a name in Italian would make you then accept the style? This seems odd.

The Language of Menswear is important, as it defines how others interpret what you're wearing, and whether the signals you're sending are coherent. But what we're discussing here is a pretty small feature that require red lines to see with much clarity. No one is going to see you and think, "what the fuck is up with the shoulders on that guy's jacket?" At least I don't think anyone was thinking that yesterday when I was wearing this:


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In fact, I can give some friendly advice: if you like this style of shoulder line, why bother with a traveling bespoke tailor? You are far better off ordering something MTM locally. Nine times out of ten, your shoulder line will look exactly this way. Want another surefire route? Order a natural, unpadded shoulder from Oxxford, wait for them to deliver exactly the opposite, ask them to fix it, wait for their alterations tailor to simply rip out all the padding and wadding, and voila, you will have spalla invertente.

The natural, curved shoulder line typical of Neapolitan tailoring is one of its key attributes. If you don't like it, and want whatever it is NSM is doing, then it makes near zero sense to me why you'd use a Neapolitan tailor to begin with.

I appreciate the friendly advice, but I'm really happy with this tailor (although I use others too when I want a different look). They make jackets I like for probably well less than half what those OXXfords cost, are fantastic to work with, and respond promptly and energetically to every request I make. Why mess with that?
post #2658 of 3960

700

 

I hate using a pic of myself to illustrate things, but look at this shoulder line. The problem here is that the top of the armscye isn't located where it should, due to a prominent forward shoulder. It's a bad fit, not a feature. In the case of NSM it may be their style, but to me it comes off as shoulder twisting, which is a bad thing.


Edited by RDiaz - 3/6/13 at 7:50am
post #2659 of 3960
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Is it more pathetic to discuss stuff on a discussion forum or whine about others discussing stuff on a discussion forum? I'd rather be known for arguing than for your hopelessly ad hominem approach. Seriously, I think you need to reassess the basis of your attitude toward me. If it surfaces in real life, you probably aren't the sort of person you'd like to see in the mirror.

Is your life outside the internet really that pathetic that you have this much time to sit here and argue over such stupid, trivial bullshit like the shape of a f*cking shoulder on a suit from a picture? Maybe you are a nice person in reality, but you come across as an abrasive prick on here.
post #2660 of 3960
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

For me personally, I don't really care whether my jackets are "genuine" or "traditional" Neapolitan style. Most of the time, I really like the NsM shoulder line. If that means that my taste is hopelessly vulgar, well, so be it. I really doubt anyone in the real world will be offended.

This makes a lot of sense to me, but I still wonder whether the differences in the shoulder line from various NSM jackets is something that they control and can implement or leave out. If you like the wavy line, do you necessarily get it regardless of fabric, or is it the unintentional result of an unpadded jacket made in a (relatively) light fabric? If the latter is the case, then regardless of whether you love the shoulder or hate the shoulder, you can't control how it ends up. That to me would be problematic.
post #2661 of 3960
Quote:
Originally Posted by agjiffy View Post

This makes a lot of sense to me, but I still wonder whether the differences in the shoulder line from various NSM jackets is something that they control and can implement or leave out. If you like the wavy line, do you necessarily get it regardless of fabric, or is it the unintentional result of an unpadded jacket made in a (relatively) light fabric? If the latter is the case, then regardless of whether you love the shoulder or hate the shoulder, you can't control how it ends up. That to me would be problematic.

I'm sure foo.gif would agree with me on this one, and people need to realize it: no matter what bespoke tailor you choose, you will not be able to control the entire process. Nor really even very much of it. A lot of the decisions are made once you choose a tailor. No tailor can be everything to every man.
post #2662 of 3960
It is true that I have some coats where the left bump doesn't show and some where it does. Since nearly everything I have is unpadded, I am not sure the cause. But I do know, from feeling that bone with certain coats on, that in some cases, it is indeed the bone that is showing.

And I'm not talking about an expansion of radius, just a bump on the top, left side only. The bone simply sticks up more there.
post #2663 of 3960
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

It is true that I have some coats where the left bump doesn't show and some where it does. Since nearly everything I have is unpadded, I am not sure the cause. But I do know, from feeling that bone with certain coats on, that in some cases, it is indeed the bone that is showing.

And I'm not talking about an expansion of radius, just a bump on the top, left side only. The bone simply sticks up more there.

The clavicle. Right. But that causes a raise in the curvature, correct? Not an inversion. There is no reason the bone mid-point in your shoulder should cause your jacket to explode toward your armscye.
post #2664 of 3960
No, not the clavicle. Further out. The Acrimion. It's like a mogul on a ski slope. The line goes down from my neck as you'd expect and then over the bump and then back down at the shoulder. Again, left side only.
post #2665 of 3960
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDiaz View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
700


I hate using a pic of myself to illustrate things, but look at this shoulder line. The problem here is that the top of the armscye isn't located where it should, due to a prominent forward shoulder. It's a bad fit, not a feature. It may just be NSM style, but to me it comes off as shoulder twisting, which is a bad thing.

Exactly. This is not a good thing or a purposeful choice. It doesn't suddenly become admirable because NSM did it. I cannot fathom how one can convince themselves bad fit becomes stylish when done on purpose. But oh man, wouldn't every tailor on earth love for that to be the case?
post #2666 of 3960
Btw, I'm meeting Nick de'Ath of Dege & Skinner at 5pm tomorrow. Will take the opportunity to ask him about my shoulder (plan on wearing a NSM Lamlana coat tomorrow).
post #2667 of 3960
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

No, not the clavicle. Further out. The Acrimion. It's like a mogul on a ski slope. The line goes down from my neck as you'd expect and then over the bump and then back down at the shoulder. Again, left side only.

Oops. Yes, the acromion. After referring to an anatomy diagram, that's what I mean too. It should cause the shoulder line to rise a bit, yes. But why would the shoulder line then keep rising and go concave? That is what makes no sense. On your Solito jackets, it either doesn't happen or is much, much less prominent an issue. So, assuming your Solito jackets fit your shoulders well, something is wonky with how NSM is doing it.

Take a look at RDiaz's photo, just posted. That does not look like anything short of a monstrously disproportionate acromion would cause.
post #2668 of 3960
Quote:
Originally Posted by agjiffy View Post

This makes a lot of sense to me, but I still wonder whether the differences in the shoulder line from various NSM jackets is something that they control and can implement or leave out. If you like the wavy line, do you necessarily get it regardless of fabric, or is it the unintentional result of an unpadded jacket made in a (relatively) light fabric? If the latter is the case, then regardless of whether you love the shoulder or hate the shoulder, you can't control how it ends up. That to me would be problematic.

It can be controlled--clearly. Hence the difference between Manton's NSM and Solito jackets. This has nothing to do with a shoulder simply being unpadded.

In the past, when I have seen the issue on other jackets, the cause has been an armscye cut too tall--usually to accommodate more padding and wadding than is actually used.
post #2669 of 3960
Rdiaz' coat does not look like mine. And, to be clear, I notice this more on my Shattuck coats than on any others. It's literally like a bump in an otherwise smooth road.

What I notice on the NSM is that, despite being unpadded, the shoulder edge/sleevehead "sticks out" a bit whereas the Solitos fall. There is a slightly squarish effect to NSM and a more rounded effect to Solito.
post #2670 of 3960
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

Rdiaz' coat does not look like mine. And, to be clear, I notice this more on my Shattuck coats than on any others. It's literally like a bump in an otherwise smooth road.

What I notice on the NSM is that, despite being unpadded, the shoulder edge/sleevehead "sticks out" a bit whereas the Solitos fall. There is a slightly squarish effect to NSM and a more rounded effect to Solito.

I don't know what is or isn't going on with your NSM jackets then. But what we see in RDiaz's example is what I am seeing on the NSM jackets posted here. If the NSM shoulder isn't falling down with your shoulder like the ones on your Solito jackets, then it's got to be how the NSM jacket is cut that is causing it to happen, not the natural shape of your own shoulder. Not to state the obvious, but you can't drop a jacket shoulder if your own shoulder is in the way.
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