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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura - Page 172

post #2566 of 3961
My NSM has the same issue. The Solitos don't.
post #2567 of 3961
It's not wadding that causes it, I don't think so. It actually has something to do with the cut and fit, my jackets have the same shoulders and I actually don't mind them because I have sloped shoulders and dropped shoulders would not look good on me. Funny thing is that when I collected the finished garment, shoulders looked one way but changed after a few wears, i.e. inverted shoulder appeared after a few wears. I am attaching the pictures for reference, I hope you can see the difference.
Still think that I need a longer coat but that's beside the point.

Picture 003.jpg 1242k .jpg file NSM.JPG 2085k .JPG file ]
post #2568 of 3961

To me, Mariano's jacket looks like a garment he would have properly filled out 15 years ago. Now due to the naturally ageing process he shrunk a little resulting in his shoulder seam not sitting on his shoulder any more. Thus the pronounced convex shape and the draping sleeve. It's still a great jacket and it still has a lot of mileage left and I don't think that one jacket is better than the other, since when it comes to clothing I don't like to deal in absolutes, but I think the fit in the shoulder could be improved by adjusting the overall shoulder width. Again, my theory, it's an old jacket which he keeps on altering slightly to suit his needs but it definitely does not compare to what I have seen him do on his clients. In my opinion his work on his clients speaks for him and not what he is wearing himself.

 

All the while I think that the concave line with the slight bump on the shoulder seam to somewhat counter the slope is very flattering to vox's physique.

 

 

 

In my opinion there is no such thing as just one good shoulder expression, it all comes down to personal taste and what's the most flattering to ones physique as well as the occasion to which the jacket is worn. In the above example I'd still stand with my initial pick.

 

In billnay's DB pic - which is absolutely fantastic except for maybe the sleeve length - I would go ahead and claim that you could put on the jacket and take it off and put it on again and the wonkyness may very well be gone. At a certain point it really comes down to obsessing about infinitesimal details...

 

edit: seem - seam, no native et cetera

post #2569 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

You can see what appears to be NSM-like wonkiness on this Rubinacci specimen:

 

 

AppleMark

 

 

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There's some consistency.

post #2570 of 3961
You are talking about shoulder extension. That is present on most of what Rubinacci makes for his clients. Ask Iammatt or whnay. That jacket he's wearing is really gorgeous. I idealize it, in fact. If you don't like it, I don't think you can really like Rubinacci, and you probably don't like real Neapolitan either.

The weird inverted shoulder line we are seeing on NSM jackets is not a thing. It is a mistake. You can like flat tires and getting only eleven donuts when you've ordered a dozen, but you'd be wrong. They are all mistakes that need to be fixed.

If you don't like a natural shoulder, then you don't get a natural shoulder. Getting two thirds of a natural shoulder and attaching it to one third of a pagoda shoulder is not a valid option. Yes, in this case, we are dealing with absolutes.
post #2571 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor Elfo View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
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I see no inversion. No switching from a convex to concave curvature. All whnay's shoulders follow a straight line or are fully concave (like a pagoda).
post #2572 of 3961
Hitchcock's jackets have a variant of this, especially when new. Most settle in and either don't show it, or make it charming in the way that some Neapolitan shirt collars roll a bit. In an ideal world, I'd prefer the same sihouette without the deltoid bump and no threat of exaggerated wadding, but when it comes together correctly it has a pleasant pizzazz.

Looking again at Vox's suit, I'd guess that there isn't much wrong that won't be cured by some wear and a pressing. It will never be the same as Rubinacci, but it doesn't look at all bad.
post #2573 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

No, look at it again: the curve doesn't invert. It drops, increasing in downward slope. There is no concavity going on.

Mariano's shoulder lines never invert. Luca's are a different style to begin with, being far straighter. But they too do not invert. Iammatt's don't. Whnay's, like Luca's, are different--but don't invert.

Sure it does. Here is the same effect. This time, look at your left shoulder:

post #2574 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor Elfo View Post


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There's some consistency.

I don't see anything like it, particularly in the bottom two (which look pretty close to a pagoda shoulder).
post #2575 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

You are talking about shoulder extension. That is present on most of what Rubinacci makes for his clients. Ask Iammatt or whnay. That jacket he's wearing is really gorgeous. I idealize it, in fact. If you don't like it, I don't think you can really like Rubinacci, and you probably don't like real Neapolitan either.

The weird inverted shoulder line we are seeing on NSM jackets is not a thing. It is a mistake. You can like flat tires and getting only eleven donuts when you've ordered a dozen, but you'd be wrong. They are all mistakes that need to be fixed.

If you don't like a natural shoulder, then you don't get a natural shoulder. Getting two thirds of a natural shoulder and attaching it to one third of a pagoda shoulder is not a valid option. Yes, in this case, we are dealing with absolutes.

 

You idolize Rubinacci? That really is news to all of us.

 

Joking aside, I don't believe that there is one distinct style of Neapolitan tailoring and that all tailors in Napoli once collectively decided to cut the same suits and never dared to develop their own interpretation of it. Let's call it the No True Neapolitan Fallacy.

 

But I see that we not only disagree on this topic but also on how to argument. I for one believe that if something exists as well as a group that appreciates it, it is inherently not wrong. For me there are no absolutes outside of science.

 

Cantonese people repeatedly try to make me eat marinated chicken feet as appetizer. They love it. To me it's not food. To me it belongs in a compost heap. I wouldn't dare to say that it is wrong to eat and like chicken feet. I defend your right to eat and order whatever you like and I would not take chicken feet away from anybody, it's simply not something I would ever wait in line for myself.

 

But I daren't say you're wrong for dealing in absolutes on a subject as subjective as this.

post #2576 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Don't think so. My jackets have a small sliver of wadding where the shoulder hits the sleevehead, but there is no such inverting. Anyway, I'm having trouble imagining why adding so much wadding that it makes your jacket explode outward like that would be advisable. I really think it has to do with cut and fit.
You're probably right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by forex View Post

...Funny thing is that when I collected the finished garment, shoulders looked one way but changed after a few wears, i.e. inverted shoulder appeared after a few wears. I am attaching the pictures for reference, I hope you can see the difference.
..
Interesting. Thanks. It is noticeable and does point to it being something intentional caused by cut/construction.

Then there is also this post by Despos, which seems to have addressed this point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Despos View Post


Quote:

Originally Posted by maomao1980 View Post

I still don't like how the shoulder lifts up at the sleeve joint
please ask them to press it down.



Quote:


Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Is it just me, or do a lot of Mina's jacket's have slightly concave shoulders (vaguely pagodo-like)?

Not pagoda style but concave, yes. There is a discussion of this, complete with red lines, in a NSM thread Edmorel started. Maybe it can be found and posted here.

This shape/expression won't show up on the try-on garment as much as in the finished jacket.

To me, this is the biggest draw to Mina's jackets. This is the hardest shoulder to make and very few tailors are able to execute this very well. Most don't want to try. I've spent years seeking tailors who make this to learn from. IMO this shoulder gives the most freedom and movement to a jacket and sits/stays on the shoulder the best. This is a thing of beauty! If you don't care for the aesthetic, I'm sure she will accommodate with a different profile of shoulder but asking to flatten and press it down is like being at the best steak house in town and putting ketchup on your steak. As this shoulder isn't seen much I can see how it would look unnaturally different to what is the more common ways of shoulder construction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clapeyron View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
To me, Mariano's jacket looks like a garment he would have properly filled out 15 years ago. Now due to the naturally ageing process he shrunk a little resulting in his shoulder seam not sitting on his shoulder any more. Thus the pronounced convex shape and the draping sleeve. It's still a great jacket and it still has a lot of mileage left and I don't think that one jacket is better than the other, since when it comes to clothing I don't like to deal in absolutes, but I think the fit in the shoulder could be improved by adjusting the overall shoulder width. Again, my theory, it's an old jacket which he keeps on altering slightly to suit his needs but it definitely does not compare to what I have seen him do on his clients. In my opinion his work on his clients speaks for him and not what he is wearing himself.

All the while I think that the concave line with the slight bump on the shoulder seam to somewhat counter the slope is very flattering to vox's physique.





In my opinion there is no such thing as just one good shoulder expression, it all comes down to personal taste and what's the most flattering to ones physique as well as the occasion to which the jacket is worn. In the above example I'd still stand with my initial pick.

In billnay's DB pic - which is absolutely fantastic except for maybe the sleeve length - I would go ahead and claim that you could put on the jacket and take it off and put it on again and the wonkyness may very well be gone. At a certain point it really comes down to obsessing about infinitesimal details...

edit: seem - seam, no native et cetera
Neat photoshopping. I definitely prefer the one on the right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agjiffy View Post

Sure it does. Here is the same effect. This time, look at your left shoulder:..
I don't think so. This looks like shoulder extension w/ wadding. Same w/ the photos Victor E posted. Clapyron's altered photos show three different types of shoulders. As I see it, the usual NSM is on the left, Whnay's Rubi's in the middle, and Mariano Rubinacci's, or something very close, on the right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clapeyron View Post

..marinated chicken feet as appetizer....
Filipino/as call this "Adidas."
post #2577 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post


I don't think so. This looks like shoulder extension w/ wadding.

No - the up and down roller coaster along the shoulder line isn't shoulder extension. That is what we are talking about..
post #2578 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by agjiffy View Post

Sure it does. Here is the same effect. This time, look at your left shoulder:


Again, no inversion. You are talking about a drop-off and increase in downward slope. There is no part of the pictured shoulder line that is concave. It is all convex.
post #2579 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Again, no inversion. You are talking about a drop-off and increase in downward slope. There is no part of the pictured shoulder line that is concave. It is all convex.

From your neck to the shoulder blade is concave. Draw the the line with a pen. It swoops down in a concave line, then up a hill, then down convex.
post #2580 of 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by agjiffy View Post

No - the up and down roller coaster along the shoulder line isn't shoulder extension. That is what we are talking about..
There is some similarity between Vox's convex to concave shoulder and Foo's. But there is an important difference. Or it looks like it. I don't think we could tell without feeling their shoulders, but Vox's looks like the upsweep causing the concave is caused by his shoulder or some construction, while Foo's looks like the jacket drops off his shoulder and then rises up again due to wadding.
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