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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura - Page 154

post #2296 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by hymo View Post

Huh? The LL and Manton like the sort of cloths that have no popular appeal -- the merchants who have those cloths at their core are all either dead, dying, or were bought out. This does not mean their cloths are not admirable -- just uncompetitive in today's market.
Sad but true.

Some time last year I tried to buy some cloth, 3 lengths, from HFW. I got two, the third they said had a flaw and, oh, they would not be re-running it. Yay!

So, I said, well OK I'll take this particular fresco. We're out of that but we'll let you know when it's re-run. OK fine. Months go by and suddently I remember. I asks what's up and they say "Discontinued". Yay!

As stupid as it is on certain levels to have 40 some-odd lengths of cloth in my attic, OTOH it's like a wine cellar now. That stuff is irreplacable. I'm glad I got the good Rangoon patterns before they killed that and also the frescos and the gabs. It will never be made again.
post #2297 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

"dry hand" to me basically means "not shiney." I really, really hate shiney cloth, except mohair, and even then I prefer the drier mohairs to the truly shiny ones.

Fair enough. Most of us, however, refer to the hand (the feel) and not the degree of lustre in the finish (otherwise all flannels would be considered "dry"). "Dry" often refers to cloth that feels slightly brittle, like it had been baked at a very high temperature, or woven from over-processed yarns; think human hair that has been bleached one too many times. The opposite is often referred to as "round" and has more spring to it. Hard to accurately describe.
post #2298 of 3849
I definitely don't like brittle, except mohair and fresco, where I think it's inevitable and part of what the character of the cloth is.

I certainly would not call a Lesser worsted brittle and it definitely has some spring.
post #2299 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post

Fair enough. Most of us, however, refer to the hand (the feel) and not the degree of lustre in the finish (otherwise all flannels would be considered "dry"). "Dry" often refers to cloth that feels slightly brittle, like it had been baked at a very high temperature, or woven from over-processed yarns; think human hair that has been bleached one too many times. The opposite is often referred to as "round" and has more spring to it. Hard to accurately describe.

Michael Alden (who also champions Lesser and Smith Woollens, like Manton) often talks about "spring" - the tension in the cloth resulting from tight "high twist" yarns. Basically you can do the "thumb test" (roll the swatch between thumb and index finger, see if it rolls smoothly or collapses) or the "crumple test" (crumple swatch into ball, release, see how fast it bounces back). I've found the tests to be very useful for identifying cloth that minimally wrinkles and keeps its shape after many wearings, and they have led me to Lesser/Smith/Harrisions, with H&S/Scabal/Dormeuil not performing as well. YMMV.
post #2300 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

I certainly would not call a Lesser worsted brittle and it definitely has some spring.

Which is why there seems to be apparent confusion. Earlier in the thread, Chris had suggested that dry cloth was less desirable, and based on my understanding of the word, I agree with him. You and Frank, however, use the word to mean something different than we do so it led to at least one poster suggesting a debate. I'm just trying to point out (and maybe not doing a good job of it) that we would be debating two different qualities that we happen to use the same word to describe, without suggesting one is right and the other wrong.
post #2301 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post

Michael Alden (who also champions Lesser and Smith Woollens, like Manton) often talks about "spring" - the tension in the cloth resulting from tight "high twist" yarns. Basically you can do the "thumb test" (roll the swatch between thumb and index finger, see if it rolls smoothly or collapses) or the "crumple test" (crumple swatch into ball, release, see how fast it bounces back). I've found the tests to be very useful for identifying cloth that minimally wrinkles and keeps its shape after many wearings, and they have led me to Lesser/Smith/Harrisions, with H&S/Scabal/Dormeuil not performing as well. YMMV.

Though high-twist yarns will, in fact, have lots of spring, the spring or roundness is not uniquely a result of these high-twist yarns. Vendon, the H&S cloth Chris mentioned, is definitely not high-twist but has an incredible bounce to it. I'm not the biggest fan of that type of weave but it's easily one of my favorite cloths to work with and wear. Too bad they discontinued it- like Manton, I should have bought more of it while it was around.
post #2302 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post

Though high-twist yarns will, in fact, have lots of spring, the spring or roundness is not uniquely a result of these high-twist yarns. Vendon, the H&S cloth Chris mentioned, is definitely not high-twist but has an incredible bounce to it. I'm not the biggest fan of that type of weave but it's easily one of my favorite cloths to work with and wear. Too bad they discontinued it- like Manton, I should have bought more of it while it was around.

Appreciate the reply. Would definitely be interested to know other ways to gauge a fabric's spring and resilience. I'm pretty hard on suits and it makes me sad when after a few wearings the trouser crease fades away and the cloth looks sad and limp.
post #2303 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

I definitely don't like brittle, except mohair and fresco, where I think it's inevitable and part of what the character of the cloth is....
Uh oh. I didn't realize fresco was brittle. Does it split like mohair sometimes? Or does it break in some other way?

Fwiw, I've never thought there was a wide gulf between Manton, etc. and Despos, etc. I've read it as Manton trying to correct the wide-spread love of supers and shiny, and Despos trying to correct those who heard this and uncritically swung to the other extreme. When FNB was in the argument though, there seemed to be two irreconcilable sides to the debate.
post #2304 of 3849
I've never heard of fresco cracking but it definitely has a rougher, stiffer feel than other worsteds. I think that's the ply and twist of the yarns. I just don't think it's possible to make an open weave that feels smooth and soft. It's sort of like a screen door. You couldn't make a screen with soft string, it takes wire. For fresco, the yarn has to be a bit wiry or the cloth simply will not hold up.
post #2305 of 3849
Basket weave/ hopsacks for jacketings are open weaves that are soft and smooth. Too soft and smooth to make trousers from but they are open weaves.

Making up several of the 10.5 ounce hopsacks from GRM at present and a few of the 8.5 ounce hopsack from Scabal.

The GRM cloth is very soft, almost cashmere soft but it holds up.
post #2306 of 3849
but IME if you hold a hopsack up to the light, it will not appear translucent like a fresco. They maybe be more open than the norm but they are not open like a fresco and they don't breath to the same degree.
post #2307 of 3849
They look like the thing you strain sauces thru, can't think of the name. Fresco looks like a window screen.
post #2308 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Despos View Post

They look like the thing you strain sauces thru, can't think of the name. Fresco looks like a window screen.
chinois
post #2309 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

chinois

Have eaten at Chinois on Main in Beverly Hills as well
post #2310 of 3849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Despos View Post

Have eaten at Chinois on Main in Beverly Hills as well

My tailor is rich.
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