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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 1734

post #25996 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7_rocket View Post

Can someone tell me what the hell Andrew Bogut does? This guy SUCKS!
I take it you didn't watch game 5?

What does Bogut do? Generally speaking, accept his role and be a team player rather than someone who gets pissy because he's not featured as the star player people once thought he could be. More specifically: provide some rim defense, be willing to push and shove a bit inside, focus on picks, passing, and rebounding without demanding the ball or clogging the lane so the wings can drive the lane. You'd prefer somebody like Dwight?
post #25997 of 27206
Thread Starter 
Bogut is there to annoy players too and get them to commit fouls/techs and just be physical. He is a dirty player but he is also a good defender, he is a pretty good shot blocker considering he doesn't seem to elevate much in his jump these days but he makes a difference in the paint.

He is also pretty smart and you'll see a stark difference when he exits and Ezeli enters.
post #25998 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

So the backlash against Steph has started. I dunno guys, he still seems like one of the most likeable guys in the league...which is saying something because success always breeds contempt. Although I agree that constantly having to see his mouthpiece is disgusting.

What? The growing dislike has absolutely zero to do with how well he plays.
post #25999 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawrenceMD View Post

OKC with their dreaded TWO KOBES offense at the end of quarters/crunch time did them in.

Kobe had teammates like Fisher and Horry who were willing to take, and able to make, big shots when they got the opportunity. Everyone on OKC other than Westbrook and Durant looked and played scared, which put more pressure on the two main guys.
post #26000 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser View Post

Kobe had teammates like Fisher and Horry who were willing to take, and able to make, big shots when they got the opportunity. Everyone on OKC other than Westbrook and Durant looked and played scared, which put more pressure on the two main guys.


Dion Waiters has never seen a shot he couldn't make. foo.gif
post #26001 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser View Post

Kobe had teammates like Fisher and Horry who were willing to take, and able to make, big shots when they got the opportunity. Everyone on OKC other than Westbrook and Durant looked and played scared, which put more pressure on the two main guys.

When you have a Kobe like scorer it creates "Kobe assists" which were those little putt backs from offensive rebounds (especially effective with a large front line like pau and Bynum or for okc ibaka/kanter and Adams), or the volume shooter scores, or draws a double team and kick out to a shooter.

With two kobes on the floor it ends up being that stagnant clogged toilet offense. Very easy to defend and get defensive rebounds against. This is what happened in crunch time and end of quarters - - wb and KD made things predictable

Instead of extending the lead okc would just squander it.
post #26002 of 27206
I think the most apt description is OKC played streetball and GSW is SPURS 2014 on steroids, crack, the fake 90210 drug euphoria, etc.


Well, here's hoping Cavs get swept at least.
post #26003 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawrenceMD View Post

When you have a Kobe like scorer it creates "Kobe assists" which were those little putt backs from offensive rebounds (especially effective with a large front line like pau and Bynum or for okc ibaka/kanter and Adams), or the volume shooter scores, or draws a double team and kick out to a shooter.

With two kobes on the floor it ends up being that stagnant clogged toilet offense. Very easy to defend and get defensive rebounds against. This is what happened in crunch time and end of quarters - - wb and KD made things predictable

Instead of extending the lead okc would just squander it.

I agree with your comments generally on an intuitive level, but didn't OKC lead the league in offensive rebounding? I'm too lazy to look it up, but I assume they did pretty well in PPG, too. With the rebounding point especially, I'm not sure how that squares up, unless it's that (1) OKC's players are so aggressive and/or effective in going after offensive rebounds that they overcame this systemic disadvantage; or (2) during the regular season they generally played in a fashion that avoided the clogged toilet effect but they got away from that under the stress of playoff pressure.



I guess offensive rebounding is not exactly the opposite of the opposing team's defensive rebounding. If you take a shit-ton of shots, there are enough rebounds to go around for everybody. But I'm again going to make a lazy assumption/inference, which is that given how strong their offensive rebounding numbers were, their "defensive rebounds against" number is relatively low.
post #26004 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

I agree with your comments generally on an intuitive level, but didn't OKC lead the league in offensive rebounding? I'm too lazy to look it up, but I assume they did pretty well in PPG, too..

During the beginning and middle of the quarters okc ran an actual offense, with Westbrook running a pick and roll with Adams/kanter/ibaka and it was scary effective (granted Adams missed a bunch of 10footers) but either way there was no stopping the easy buckets. Once the defense would try to collapse on the pick and roll KD then had free reign to be an effective iso player.

That's when okc would open up those 10-15pt leads.

Then the end of quarter would come (or gsw would hit some threes) and the offense turned into KD and WB dueling banjos iso offense to where the defense could just double on KD or collapse on a slashing WB.

They lead the league in offensive rebounding probably because of the normal effective offensive sets that yielded the normal Kobe assist offensive rebounds from that huge front line

Gsw and Spurs, and 2008-2012 Celtics did the new school thing and just avoid offensive rebounds all together , because the analytics pointed towards having a complete defense set up as quickly as possible yielded better numbers (in preventing points) rather than gambling for and offensive rebound to score points.

It's dependent on personnel though, if you have a huge front line then you can then start having the bigs go for offensive rebounds, which the 2008-2010 lakers proved fruitful.
post #26005 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawrenceMD View Post

During the beginning and middle of the quarters okc ran an actual offense, with Westbrook running a pick and roll with Adams/kanter/ibaka and it was scary effective (granted Adams missed a bunch of 10footers) but either way there was no stopping the easy buckets. Once the defense would try to collapse on the pick and roll KD then had free reign to be an effective iso player.

That's when okc would open up those 10-15pt leads.

Then the end of quarter would come (or gsw would hit some threes) and the offense turned into KD and WB dueling banjos iso offense to where the defense could just double on KD or collapse on a slashing WB.

They lead the league in offensive rebounding probably because of the normal effective offensive sets that yielded the normal Kobe assist offensive rebounds from that huge front line

Gsw and Spurs, and 2008-2012 Celtics did the new school thing and just avoid offensive rebounds all together , because the analytics pointed towards having a complete defense set up as quickly as possible yielded better numbers (in preventing points) rather than gambling for and offensive rebound to score points.

It's dependent on personnel though, if you have a huge front line then you can then start having the bigs go for offensive rebounds, which the 2008-2010 lakers proved fruitful.

Makes sense.
On your final point, I'd say that an additional factor in favor of going the offensive rebound route is one one of those bigs (*cough*Bynum*cough*) is a mentally lazy dope who might make "having a complete defense set up as quickly as possible" harder to achieve consistently than it otherwise should be.
post #26006 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texasmade View Post

You don't remember the Kobe Bryant death stare to Mike Brown? Mike was gone like within a week after that death stare.
Obviously MJ and Kobe had their share of coaches they ran out of town... But what LBJ did to Blatt was another level. His reasoning it with his "brilliant basketball mind" is the icing on the cake.
post #26007 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawrenceMD View Post

During the beginning and middle of the quarters okc ran an actual offense, with Westbrook running a pick and roll with Adams/kanter/ibaka and it was scary effective (granted Adams missed a bunch of 10footers) but either way there was no stopping the easy buckets. Once the defense would try to collapse on the pick and roll KD then had free reign to be an effective iso player.

That's when okc would open up those 10-15pt leads.

Then the end of quarter would come (or gsw would hit some threes) and the offense turned into KD and WB dueling banjos iso offense to where the defense could just double on KD or collapse on a slashing WB.

OKC seemed to have learned something important about themselves during the SA series, and it really did look reborn. And really did look like they were going to pull this off. I didn't know this, but I was surprised to find out how many of the Thunder's games were lost in a pretty crap fashion in 4th Q collapses during the regular season. The DNA for this series was sewn in that.

I really can't find a logical explanation why this team succeeds and is able to build a lead thru good basketball and then their 2 stars, in tandem 'takeover the game'. Now if this was successful, fine... but it's not. And these are 2 top athletes, and you have to assume they're a hair above knuckle draggers, so how on earth can they not accept they're better in the flow than in hero ball? It's a series question... how come they can't get it and cut the shit?
post #26008 of 27206
OKC was feasting on the offensive boards because Draymond either had to help prevent KD/Westbrook driving into the lane, or OKC would force a switch and have Draymond be the primary defender. Either way, Draymond would be contesting the shot instead of rebounding.

When we had Bogut in, we did alright grabbing boards. But whenever he sat, Adams feasted or Westbrook would sneak in and tip the ball out. The scheme allowed OKC so many 2nd and 3rd chances. Same way Kobe would draw a double and Pau could crash the board.

Then Adams got roasted by Klay and Curry at the 3 point line, when they combined for 8/8 (!!!!!!) in shooting over Adams. BD pulled him, and the rest is history.
post #26009 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by skitlets View Post

OKC was feasting on the offensive boards because Draymond either had to help prevent KD/Westbrook driving into the lane, or OKC would force a switch and have Draymond be the primary defender. Either way, Draymond would be contesting the shot instead of rebounding.

When we had Bogut in, we did alright grabbing boards. But whenever he sat, Adams feasted or Westbrook would sneak in and tip the ball out. The scheme allowed OKC so many 2nd and 3rd chances. Same way Kobe would draw a double and Pau could crash the board.

Then Adams got roasted by Klay and Curry at the 3 point line, when they combined for 8/8 (!!!!!!) in shooting over Adams. BD pulled him, and the rest is history.

OKC started G7 with like 5 chances at a basket. I believe Bogut was a starter. Adams defending at the 3 point line wasn't the fundamental problem, they demonstrated a clear capacity to outscore GS. What was a problem is that OKCs 2 main star players have seen too many super hero movies and couldn't trust a functional offense.
Edited by idfnl - 5/31/16 at 7:19pm
post #26010 of 27206
Eh even if they run a crap offense, when you get 3 tries at the bucket, you're gonna get 1 eventually. I would've kept Adam in, but I can see why BD pulled him.

I'm not even making a fundamental point about why a team won or lost. There's a bunch of reasons. Just stating my 2c about offensive rebounding in this series.
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