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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 1650

post #24736 of 27243

Grizzlies are decimated by injuries.  We resorted to Tony Allen running point last night after Chalmers ruptured his Achilles.  Going to get slaughtered in the playoffs.

post #24737 of 27243

I don't rate the Clippers as a good or even above-average defensive team; looking at numbers, I know Hollinger's metrics puts them in the Top 10 (higher, most likely) but they have some sieves on their roster. Crawford, Rivers, Pierce, Prigioni are sub-par, due to age or style of play. Jordan is good, Paul is good (yet so bloody dirty, ugh), JJ tries hard and has improved but he's still below average. Green and Johnson are good if locked in (looking at you, Jeff!). 

 

I'm hoping Westbrook really puts the brakes on his natural tendencies; let's see what happens when they face the Spurs and Boston.

 

Feel sorry for the Grizz; Z-Bo, TA, Conley and baby Gasol are players I really appreciate.

 

I see we brought in Thornton and waived an injured Neal (best ISO player this season, according to stats). Really, really hope we miss the playoffs so Ern and Randy get the sack. 

post #24738 of 27243
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoni View Post

 

 

Feel sorry for the Grizz; Z-Bo, TA, Conley and baby Gasol are players I really appreciate.

 

 

We should limp into the playoffs, resting players as much as possible.  Z-Bo, Conley, Grizzila, Barnes, and Grindfather should all be healthy come playoffs.  Given our last 10 games (Warriors 2x, Spurs 2x, Toronto 1x, Clips 1x), there is no way we can close a 3 game spread from the 4-seed Clips.  The 5-seed seems to be on lockdown, pending absolute implosion, so I look forward to a Griz vs. Clips playoff battle.  Excited for the brawls that ensue, not the actual games.

 

 

post #24739 of 27243
is prigioni really sub par? he's a step slow so people blow by him, but dude is mad smart. knows when to switch, tag, rotate, and help out

jeff was brought in as a defensive stopper, but just doesnt hustle. plays defense when he feels like it
post #24740 of 27243
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

is prigioni really sub par? he's a step slow so people blow by him, but dude is mad smart. knows when to switch, tag, rotate, and help out

jeff was brought in as a defensive stopper, but just doesnt hustle. plays defense when he feels like it

 

That's a huge liability in today's league, especially for perimeter players. We've got Dudley who's similarly very smart in terms of positioning and reading rotations, but just unable physically to keep up with quick players. I like Prig but cannot rate him on defense; would be interesting to see if my eye test matches the stats, and frankly I would be happy if I'm proven wrong.

 

I totally agree on Green, if he's motivated he's good, really good.

post #24741 of 27243
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoni View Post

That's a huge liability in today's league, especially for perimeter players. We've got Dudley who's similarly very smart in terms of positioning and reading rotations, but just unable physically to keep up with quick players. I like Prig but cannot rate him on defense; would be interesting to see if my eye test matches the stats, and frankly I would be happy if I'm proven wrong.

I totally agree on Green, if he's motivated he's good, really good.

Tim Duncan proves that physicality is overrated. A guy that knows where to be is more valuable that an athletic type that can make up ground (over a career). It's the old English football adage... "he's quick over a yard".
post #24742 of 27243
nah. tim duncan is a center. he stays in the middle. perimeter defenders have to fight through screens and be really quick laterally
post #24743 of 27243

Duncan does not operate on the perimeter anymore (if he ever did, stretch 4s were pretty rare until a few years back - looking back at proto-big men with 3 point range I can think of Cliff Robinson, Dirk, Sheed, Turkoglu, Rashard Lewis), so he's far more effective due to the way he operates. There's also the fact that he's long so he can make you think twice about taking a shot. Another advantage he has - he's Tim Duncan; most superstars get away with moving screens and other subtle(ish) fouls. Not saying he's a dirty player, but he'll get the benefit of the doubt in a close-call situation.

 

Some slow players can be effective, if their man is trying to post them up, for example (hello Andre Miller), or if they have good hands and can get steals (Prigioni was very good at this last season, I think) but again, you have someone slow on a capable guard or wing, it's asking for trouble. If you switch and don't fight through you end up with mismatches; I've seen the Wizards get burned so many times this season due to our switch-everything mentality. If you're slow to navigate the screen, you've given up an open look.

 

Being slow is a killer in the league; you can get away with lacking (some) size but not with having a slow team. Miami had some size but they were also mobile and just swarming on defense; Warriors, no need to comment; the Spurs on their recent championship team had Splitter and Duncan (both slow), but also Green and Leonard, who were great perimeter defenders (and still are). Diaw is deceptively mobile (in my opinion), Mills is short but scrappy (this last bit is some kind of required attribute for antipodean players, it seems) and Ginobli and Belinelli were about average. It definitely helped that Miami did not have a lot of 3 point shooters that year (Bosh, Bron, Lewis and Ray Allen off the bench).

 

TLDR: slow players can survive in some defensive schemes where you have great help options (Spurs) but having them guard good perimeter players is a very risky proposition.

post #24744 of 27243
I don't think it's killer. It's big but not everything. If you have Duncan or DJ or Gobert you can afford to make mistakes provided you stick to their hip or switch when needed. Plus you're going to get screened anyways and players that can always fight through screens are pretty rare.

I think it's equally important to know when to help and when not to and that entails hustle and knowledge of schemes and what's going to happen a few moves ahead. Lateral quickness helps but good teams can cover for deficits. IMO defense is more team based than offense and it's less about individual abilities than collective iq and hustle
post #24745 of 27243
The Spurs chip over the Heat (the Mavs to some degree also) shows that team D is more effective than individual physical attributes. League history is littered with this, like the Cetics over the Lakers in the 80s, etc.

Guys that are athletically off the chart tend to rely on it too much then fall off a cliff when they lose a step. Iman Shumpert is a perfect example, here's a guy with every physical attribute you can dream of but you watch him and he just seems completely ineffective. Juxtapose that with a guy like Raja Bell.
post #24746 of 27243
Bulls lose again to the Spurs this time but at least they looked competitive without Jimmy.
post #24747 of 27243

I think we're all agreeing on the same thing here - you can hide some players, depending on defensive schemes or help. For me, that points out to one thing - you need something above average - either high BB IQ and support (Spurs, as noted, although Leonard and Green were really really good, as far as I can remember) or average BB IQ but good athletic ability (mobility and speed of reaction, to swarm, recover and chase people around screens). Is one more important than the other? Inconclusive, for me, since recent examples that were brought up seem to line up with my observations about help defense.

 

You'd expect that players learn more about positioning the longer they're in the league, so when they start to slow down they can instead use their experience to make up for it. Then again, using this logic Shaq, DeAndre and Drummond should have improved their FT % over the years...

 

As I recall, Shump was regarded as an elite defender before his injuries; not sure if he's any good now, don't watch the Cavs, even when they play us.

post #24748 of 27243
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoni View Post

I think we're all agreeing on the same thing here - you can hide some players, depending on defensive schemes or help. For me, that points out to one thing - you need something above average - either high BB IQ and support (Spurs, as noted, although Leonard and Green were really really good, as far as I can remember) or average BB IQ but good athletic ability (mobility and speed of reaction, to swarm, recover and chase people around screens). Is one more important than the other? Inconclusive, for me, since recent examples that were brought up seem to line up with my observations about help defense.

You'd expect that players learn more about positioning the longer they're in the league, so when they start to slow down they can instead use their experience to make up for it. Then again, using this logic Shaq, DeAndre and Drummond should have improved their FT % over the years...

As I recall, Shump was regarded as an elite defender before his injuries; not sure if he's any good now, don't watch the Cavs, even when they play us.

Shumpert is an elite athlete, not necessarily an elite defender. I would want a high BB IQ over athletic prowess, much longer career that way.
post #24749 of 27243
Russy got handcuffed tonight. Spurs ran a lot of people at him, but it was primarily Leonard. Great game.
post #24750 of 27243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post

Russy got handcuffed tonight. Spurs ran a lot of people at him, but it was primarily Leonard. Great game.


Damn it, did not catch the game. I find it interesting that the Spurs bench scored 8 points more than the OKC bench, and the final score reflected the same point difference. Except Kanter, the OKC bench had nothing to offer. Durant went 0-5 for 3 pointers, curious to know if defense was the factor or just a night off. For the Spurs, Danny Green going 1-10 is a bad performance but surely an encouraging sign, since they still won.

 

Edit: 9 turnovers for Westbrook? I might need to watch the whole game now; I had such high hopes for him after the Clippers game...

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